Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

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legacypixels
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Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by legacypixels »

Don't forget there's a 56000 DSP in there too.
US based seller of MiSTer addon boards. Visit www.legacypixels.com/mister
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Chris23235
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Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

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I don't think size is such a problem. The whole Amiga core uses about 1/3 of the MiSTer fpga and it comes with 68000 and 68020 support and AGA graphics. So a Falcon shouldn't take up 3 times of this.
daschewie
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Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by daschewie »

Chris23235 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:53 am I don't think size is such a problem. The whole Amiga core uses about 1/3 of the MiSTer fpga and it comes with 68000 and 68020 support and AGA graphics. So a Falcon shouldn't take up 3 times of this.
Back in the 90's Moore's Law was truly in effect. So transistor counts were going up exponentially.

An interesting piece of trivia: The original Motorola 68000 was named after its transistor count (68,000).
Unfortunately the 68030 has a transistor count of 273,000, making it 4 times larger than the 68000.
The 68040 has 1,200,000 transistors making it 17 times larger and so on.

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Transistor_count
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Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

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How many of these transistors were cache?
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Chris23235
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Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

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daschewie wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 5:41 am
Chris23235 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:53 am I don't think size is such a problem. The whole Amiga core uses about 1/3 of the MiSTer fpga and it comes with 68000 and 68020 support and AGA graphics. So a Falcon shouldn't take up 3 times of this.
Back in the 90's Moore's Law was truly in effect. So transistor counts were going up exponentially.

An interesting piece of trivia: The original Motorola 68000 was named after its transistor count (68,000).
Unfortunately the 68030 has a transistor count of 273,000, making it 4 times larger than the 68000.
The 68040 has 1,200,000 transistors making it 17 times larger and so on.

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Transistor_count
1.2 million transistors is roughly what the i486 uses and this CPU fits so comfortably into the MiSTer FPGA that there is also room for both Soundblaster and SVGA. The 273000 transistors of the 68030 are no indicator that the core can't fit into the MiSTer. They are roughly the same as the combined 68000 and 68020 transistor count and both chips are implemented into Minimig at the same time.
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Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

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Chris23235 wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 10:01 am 1.2 million transistors is roughly what the i486 uses and this CPU fits so comfortably into the MiSTer FPGA that there is also room for both Soundblaster and SVGA. The 273000 transistors of the 68030 are no indicator that the core can't fit into the MiSTer. They are roughly the same as the combined 68000 and 68020 transistor count and both chips are implemented into Minimig at the same time.
Sorry, but this is just false. The ao486 implementation on the MiSTer is a hack and is based on the Bochs software x86 implementation. It achieves speed through liberal use of cache but many games and software have horrible compatibility issues. A true i486 implementation wouldn't even come close to fitting on the MiSTer.
daschewie
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Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by daschewie »

Chris23235 wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 10:01 am
daschewie wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 5:41 am
Chris23235 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:53 am I don't think size is such a problem. The whole Amiga core uses about 1/3 of the MiSTer fpga and it comes with 68000 and 68020 support and AGA graphics. So a Falcon shouldn't take up 3 times of this.
Back in the 90's Moore's Law was truly in effect. So transistor counts were going up exponentially.

An interesting piece of trivia: The original Motorola 68000 was named after its transistor count (68,000).
Unfortunately the 68030 has a transistor count of 273,000, making it 4 times larger than the 68000.
The 68040 has 1,200,000 transistors making it 17 times larger and so on.

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Transistor_count
1.2 million transistors is roughly what the i486 uses and this CPU fits so comfortably into the MiSTer FPGA that there is also room for both Soundblaster and SVGA. The 273000 transistors of the 68030 are no indicator that the core can't fit into the MiSTer. They are roughly the same as the combined 68000 and 68020 transistor count and both chips are implemented into Minimig at the same time.
I did not say it could not be implemented on Mister, I just mentioned that the complexity is more than 3 times as much as the 68000. There are two ways to create things, either making an exact replica of the circuits (i.e. decapping and tracing), or mimicking observed behavior (i.e. probing data lines). The ao486 core mimics behavior and is not 100% compatible.
Souldream
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Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by Souldream »

Perhaps people lost ... but DSP56K source VHDL exist ;)

https://github.com/Torlus/firebee-fpga/tree/master/DSP
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Chris23235
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Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by Chris23235 »

dmckean wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 9:06 pm
Chris23235 wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 10:01 am 1.2 million transistors is roughly what the i486 uses and this CPU fits so comfortably into the MiSTer FPGA that there is also room for both Soundblaster and SVGA. The 273000 transistors of the 68030 are no indicator that the core can't fit into the MiSTer. They are roughly the same as the combined 68000 and 68020 transistor count and both chips are implemented into Minimig at the same time.
Sorry, but this is just false. The ao486 implementation on the MiSTer is a hack and is based on the Bochs software x86 implementation. It achieves speed through liberal use of cache but many games and software have horrible compatibility issues. A true i486 implementation wouldn't even come close to fitting on the MiSTer.
Sorry, but this is just false, there aren't "horrible compability issues" with the core, but very mild compability issues and they are not necessary rooted in the CPU as a DOS machine is a complex system with various components that could be incompatible to another (just like it was in the old DOS days). The fact that the implementation is based on Bochs doesn't mean that it is less complex then a real 486. You can be sure if the engineers at Intel were able to reduce the number of transistors by quite a margin they would have done it back then. ao486 features everything a 486SX features plus additional caches.
Again the combined transistor count of the 68000 and 68020 is already about 20% of the i486 transistor count
and both live happily within the minimig core together with the ECS and AGA chipset and the rest of the Amiga hardware. The complete core utilises about 35% of the MiSTer.
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