Coco 2 + Mantra Alice + Dragon 32/64

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kathleen
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Re: Coco 2 + Mantra Alice + Dragon 32/64

Unread post by kathleen »

Here are two nice add-ons to add to the Mister running with the Coco2 core for those who maybe want to put the Mister in a real Coco case
https://www.tindie.com/stores/fiscap0768/

I'm just wondering if the real analogue joystick could work with the Coco2 core

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Re: Coco 2 + Mantra Alice + Dragon 32/64

Unread post by dshadoff »

kathleen wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:23 am Here are two nice add-ons to add to the Mister running with the Coco2 core for those who maybe want to put the Mister in a real Coco case
https://www.tindie.com/stores/fiscap0768/

I'm just wondering if the real analogue joystick could work with the Coco2 core
And if you want a CoCo keyboard to go with that USB converter... look here (but he runs out of them quite frequently):
https://thezippsterzone.com/keyboards/
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Re: Coco 2 + Mantra Alice + Dragon 32/64

Unread post by dshadoff »

Higgy wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:57 pm Cool. I would like to test Dragon loading.
I have a CASdunio that I used with my Dragon64 for loading tapes.
Higgy, if you have a CASduino, could you run a test for me ?
Please try playing the output into the ADCTest core, with the "3.3V" scale, and take a screenshot. (Please play CoCo format)

I am wondering whether that device is AC coupled or not (it should be), and whether the amplitude is within spec.
This will determine whether it can be used with the ADC as-is. In building my own CoCo-type virtual cassette player (different design), I have met issues like these, and adjusted my design accordingly.

If it's correct, the waveform should be roughly in the middle of the scale, without touching either edge.
If you see only half of the waveform, but centered on "zero", that would indicate DC coupling.
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Re: Coco 2 + Mantra Alice + Dragon 32/64

Unread post by Higgy »

No problem. I will have a go.
Funny I was on their website yesterday and spotted that they had updated the CASdunio firmware. I will test before updating firmware and again after updating.
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Re: Coco 2 + Mantra Alice + Dragon 32/64

Unread post by Higgy »

Updated with photos. Is this good?
This is with CASDuino 1.17 firmware.
Dragon game loading
Dragon game loading
Dragon_Loading.jpg (25.96 KiB) Viewed 10233 times
No loading started.
No loading started.
No_Loading.jpg (26.67 KiB) Viewed 10233 times
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Re: Coco 2 + Mantra Alice + Dragon 32/64

Unread post by dshadoff »

The position of the line indicates that it has a good capacitive coupling, and can be used.
But it doesn't appear to be playing anything in the pictures... there's no visible waveform.

I've submitted a pull request for tape input via ADC for the CoCo core, and it should turn into a new release soon, once the framework is updated.

In my ADC update, I detect transition from '0' to '1' when the signal overshoots the running-average value by 0.1V; this is fine based on my tests with my own virtual tape player device (which was itself tested by playback to a real CoCo2).

For reference, on the 3.3V scale of the ADCTest core, each of the solid green lines is 1 volt from the next, with 0.5V from solid green to dotted-green... so 0.1V is not such a big movement. I check for overshoot to reduce the possibility of noise causing a zero-cross.

So, soon it should be testable... Actually, if you can build the core for yourself, you can beta test now, since Alan merged the pull request.

I've advised Pierco of the change as well; the Alice/MC-10 core shouldn't be too far behind for real tape support.
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Re: Coco 2 + Mantra Alice + Dragon 32/64

Unread post by Higgy »

There is something there just quiet. I can hear the 'music' :)
There is an onboard amp but I did not tweak it. I should have tested a MSX .CAS to compare output.
I only have a physical MSX now, but the CASdunio's output should not have changed from when I used it with a Dragon.
I got the latest firmware 1.24 installed on my CASduino last night, but did not get around to comparing output. Also I will try and use a TOSEC .CAS, I can't remember where I got my .CAS files. The new firmware is supposed to improve TOSEC compatability.
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Re: Coco 2 + Mantra Alice + Dragon 32/64

Unread post by dshadoff »

OK, the ADC updates are in the CoCo2 core now, and it has been released. Please give it a try.


@kathleen: you might want to try the Spectrum Analyzer program now too, but if you have any issues, check ADCTest to see the the signal is not half cut-off.

I've tried from various sources, and:
- analog sources such as old cassette players have capacitive decoupling, display in the centre of the ADCTest screen
- digital sources such as cellphones and sound cards tend to be DC-coupled, and won't work even on original machines, unless the signal is sent through a series capacitor. (Something between 1uF to 10uF should be fine).
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Re: Coco 2 + Mantra Alice + Dragon 32/64

Unread post by kathleen »

dshadoff wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:09 pm
@kathleen: you might want to try the Spectrum Analyzer program now too, but if you have any issues, check ADCTest to see the the signal is not half cut-off.
@dshadoff,

1st of all thank you for your work on this amazing core.

Here are my today's results:

I've just tested by connecting an old realistic :-) tape recorder to the Mister
01.jpg
01.jpg (234 KiB) Viewed 9807 times
Then, I have tested the signal with the ADC test utility. See below photos for the results.
02.jpg
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03.jpg
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04.jpg
04.jpg (186.07 KiB) Viewed 9807 times
I can also hear via the audio out of the mister (connected to an amplifier) what is coming in. As long as I stay between the red line, the sound is OK as it should be.
I then loaded the new Coco2 core with the Audio Spectrum cartridge and as expected the audio in is working as I can see the bars dancing
but, the output signal is distorted despite during the test with the ADC utility it was OK.

I gave a try with the audio out of my PC and it is catastrophic, I mean it is completely saturated even with a very low input level.

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Re: Coco 2 + Mantra Alice + Dragon 32/64

Unread post by dshadoff »

When you say "the output signal is distorted", let me confirm that this is the scenario you are talking about:
- Using CoCo2 core
- Using Audio Spectrum Analyzer
- Listening to the MiSTer output

...if this is the case, I can understand that - I didn't implement a pass-through from ADC in to the MiSTer sound output on the CoCo core; there was already a bunch of other logic and levelling there, and the "audio pass-thru" option on the audio is not implemented.

I guess what I was hoping to understand, was whether the spectrum analyzer part of the software was functioning how you expect it to, visually.

...Of course, if I misunderstood the scenario, please help me to understand.
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Re: Coco 2 + Mantra Alice + Dragon 32/64

Unread post by Higgy »

Yeah tape loading works :)
I tried a couple of Dragon games via the CASdunio.
Sorry I might not have read everything correctly, but is it possible to have a 'Hard Reset' option in OSD menu? Reset quite often just gives grabbed screen and it is a pain having to reset whole MiSTer and reload Core.
I expect CoCo might have been the same as Dragon as Reset on the computer often reset the game and you had to 'power cycle' to clear memory.
Great work. Thanks
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Re: Coco 2 + Mantra Alice + Dragon 32/64

Unread post by kathleen »

dshadoff wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:59 pm When you say "the output signal is distorted", let me confirm that this is the scenario you are talking about:
- Using CoCo2 core
- Using Audio Spectrum Analyzer
- Listening to the MiSTer output

...if this is the case, I can understand that - I didn't implement a pass-through from ADC in to the MiSTer sound output on the CoCo core; there was already a bunch of other logic and levelling there, and the "audio pass-thru" option on the audio is not implemented.

I guess what I was hoping to understand, was whether the spectrum analyzer part of the software was functioning how you expect it to, visually.

...Of course, if I misunderstood the scenario, please help me to understand.
Hi dshadoff,
Yes this is the exact scenario that I was talking about
Thank you for your explanation !

Knowing this, could you please let me know if the basic command "AUDIO ON" uses the pass-thru as well ? In which case this command wouldn't give the expected results right ? (Sorry I did not think to try it yesterday)
Do you feel that this audio pass-thru will be implemented ? From my point of view this is a must have feature.

Thanks again !

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Re: Coco 2 + Mantra Alice + Dragon 32/64

Unread post by dshadoff »

The audio pass-thru can be implemented, but it will take a bit of effort to understand the "plumbing" that's there right now, and make it work together.
I'm pretty sure that "AUDIO ON" uses this pass-thru.

...But what about the graphical view of the audio spectrum analyzer ?
You had mentioned that this was something that required the ADC in order to work (beyond tapes).
...this should not be affected by the existence/non-existence of audio pass-thru, as the CPU only sees the 1-bit value from the tape in order to do its calculations.
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Re: Coco 2 + Mantra Alice + Dragon 32/64

Unread post by kathleen »

The graphic view, bars and kaleidoscope work as they should ! No more issue on that side.

yes absolutely the good working of the program is not affected at all by the pass-thru, the only thing that I wanted to point out is that back in the day, this cartridge was somehow used in serial between an audio source and an amplifier or ideally after a mix table and before the power amplifier which in this case it is not possible as the audio signal coming out the audio out is distorted, but you're right this does not prevent to get the cartridge working and use it. Anyway, when I was a young girl I was fascinated by this cartridge, 40 years later seeing it working on the Mister warms my heart

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Re: Coco 2 + Mantra Alice + Dragon 32/64

Unread post by braincell »

Very nice, Dragon was my 1st machine but always a cbm guy :)

What's compatibility like ??
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Re: Coco 2 + Mantra Alice + Dragon 32/64

Unread post by ron »

braincell wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:17 pm Very nice, Dragon was my 1st machine but always a cbm guy :)

What's compatibility like ??
A FPGA core is not like an emulator, emulation it's a sequence in which some things can run well and others simply do not work.
In a FPGA everything runs on same time. If the implementation is good and meets the right timmings, video and audio then what you will get is exactly the same as if you had a real Dragon 32 in front of you, or a CoCo2.
All that software that can be loaded will work.

Cheers
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Re: Coco 2 + Mantra Alice + Dragon 32/64

Unread post by braincell »

Thanks for the explanation Ron.

I have a little experience of fpgas so understand the differences in a linear program to concurrent fpga execution.

It would have been more accurate too ask of the current state of the core , compatibility wise.

I know the dragon had a funky clock stretching mechanism along with some really kludgy pal outputs.

I will give the core a go at the weekend , just wondering how complete it is.

Thanks
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Re: Coco 2 + Mantra Alice + Dragon 32/64

Unread post by danielb »

Hi, I just loaded a Dragon game from a wav file using VLC player on my laptop. Loaded first time.

Thanks very much for implementing this feature.

D.
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Re: Coco 2 + Mantra Alice + Dragon 32/64

Unread post by dshadoff »

Support for ADC tape input has now been added to the AliceMC10 core.

I also submitted a pull request for audio pass-thru from the cassette port on the CoCo2 core, so it should appear at some point soon.
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Re: Coco 2 + Mantra Alice + Dragon 32/64

Unread post by braincell »

Tried the coco2 core today ( dragon32 ). Mostly works very well. Whatbi did struggle with was resetting the core, sometimes it would hang with garbage on the screen , other times it had inverted "@" all over the screen whilst other it reset normally.

This also happened when switching between machines ( coco2/d32/d64 )

Would guess there's a minor error in the initialisation of memory / rom during reset
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Re: Coco 2 + Mantra Alice + Dragon 32/64

Unread post by dshadoff »

Alan is aware of that, and will eventually come back to look at it. It is a known issue.

Something you may not know, is that real hardware also has this issue with resets (I have seen it on my original hardware while working on this core)... although it's about 10 times less frequent on real hardware.
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Re: Coco 2 + Mantra Alice + Dragon 32/64

Unread post by braincell »

Tape (cas) support works very well with my cas files, some refused to work but I will have to try them on real hardware. Once or twice though I had to "stop / rewind" to get a cas to load though....... ( seemed to clip the leader ????? )
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Re: Coco 2 + Mantra Alice + Dragon 32/64

Unread post by dshadoff »

Which core ?
I assume when you say "CAS", you are talking about internal "load from file" support, and not CASduino ?
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Re: Coco 2 + Mantra Alice + Dragon 32/64

Unread post by braincell »

Yes exactly, again whilst loading into the dragon32, selected the file then did a cloadm, only happened twice in over a couple of hours.

Familiar tone-noise "found filename" tone-noise "loading data" didn't happen, after cloadm I just heard noise briefly ( no tone ) then error.
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Re: Coco 2 + Mantra Alice + Dragon 32/64

Unread post by dshadoff »

If you are getting your CAS files from TOSEC - especially for Dragon - those are actually not all following specifications; we have found that some of the files have been super-abbreviated to the point that the original tape protocol is not being followed, and has sections removed

I think this is some weird 'short form' that some emulator developer thought was a good idea 20 years ago for his own personal use; I have seen other mentions of it being non-standard elsewhere on the internet.

In the event that this is unrelated to the above, I'm checking with Pierco on some subtleties of the implementation.
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Re: Coco 2 + Mantra Alice + Dragon 32/64

Unread post by braincell »

I know exactly what you mean , when I got my casduino I found lots of games wouldn't work , I ran into 1 of those earlier with "pedro" which seems to not have a leader at all ( gonna have to try that on my real dragon)

I ended up getting a new set from a site and they are the ones I use on the casduino which have worked quite well with the ones I tried and thats the set I put on my mister sd

I only mention it as I the stop rewind and cloafm again got it too load , was only twice so maybor may not be an issue.

Core generally works very well and it's one I'm sure to spend some time using.

😀
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Re: Coco 2 + Mantra Alice + Dragon 32/64

Unread post by dshadoff »

New release of CoCo2 is out, many small updates including the AUDIO ON referenced earlier.
See the note in "Updates and Changelog" for more details.
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Re: Coco 2 + Mantra Alice + Dragon 32/64

Unread post by danielb »

Hi,
The latest version of the Alice core doesn't seem to work with my monitor over HDMI. The previous version worked fine. No other core does this, as far as I am aware.

Tks,

D
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Re: Coco 2 + Mantra Alice + Dragon 32/64

Unread post by Shuffle7 »

As my first computer I’m trying to get coco to work tonight . Combination of run, cload , stop and rewind of tape and choosing which machine to use (dragon32 in this case ) first game to load is leggit from imagine 1983

Thanks so much
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Re: Coco 2 + Mantra Alice + Dragon 32/64

Unread post by TomGun7 »

Is there any way to save to (virtual) tape on the Dragon/CoCo core? And are there any plans for (virtual) disk support (DragonDOS)? I would like to put my real Dragons away, and use the MiSTer as my main Dragon (that’s how well it works, and it’s so easy to bring with me), but that means I must have a way to save to either disk or tape. Anyone who knows?
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