Neo Geo CD

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pac
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by pac »

Absolutely 2nd this - while it's probably not your first choice for titles like AOF3 and the more recent KOFs, a big number of the older titles are CD > cartridge for the arranged score alone, e.g. Last Resort which has a brilliant score on the CD version, and loads the whole game a single time at startup into memory.
pedroTFP
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by pedroTFP »

Being an ignorant paesant, just out of curiosity: how much from the work done for NeoGeo core and NeoGeo CD ODE could a developer benefit in order to work on a Neo Geo CD core?
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darksakul
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by darksakul »

pedroTFP wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:15 pm Being an ignorant paesant, just out of curiosity: how much from the work done for NeoGeo core and NeoGeo CD ODE could a developer benefit in order to work on a Neo Geo CD core?
Yes the leg work for all the chips has been done, and minus the CD drive and supporting hardware the Neo Geo CD is nearly identical to the AES and MVS hardware.

The real question is getting all of those parts together in the right order and working with each other. It's not just the chips, but every linkage between each chip has to be coded in VDHL to mimick the original motherboard and make sure it runs like the original does.
Who ever does this will have to work on a Neo Geo CD still from the ground up, and they have to be motivated to do so.
Everyone who shown has the skills to do so don't feel their time is well used to get 1 game working.

What you are asking for is someone to put together a 10,000 piece puzzle with no picture, pieces can physically fit in multiple places incorrectly, an unknown number of pieces missing, and no one actually cares to put this particular puzzle together.

That is it, all that is were missing from the Neo geo CD, just the one game.
And believe me you aren't missing much.
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DaveGeorge
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by DaveGeorge »

darksakul wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:27 pm

That is it, all that is were missing from the Neo geo CD, just the one game.
And believe me you aren't missing much.
But it’s not just ”that one game” now is it. Quite a few of the CD-games are enhanced in one way or another. Turfmasters has the Scotland course, Metal Slug has the combat school, Real bout Special has Blue Mary’s music video. Not to mention the cd-soundtrack that’s included in a lot of the titles.

If people stopped saying that it’s just one game and instead looked at all the extra goodies the Neo CD has maybe the good people developing cores would be more keen on taking this project on?
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by dshadoff »

I don't think that's persuasive enough to get the developers to switch from the other cores they are currently working on.
But that's not the only way for it to get done. The question is, is it persuasive enough to get you (or other people supporting this) to join in and learn about development ?
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darksakul
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by darksakul »

DaveGeorge wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:54 pm
darksakul wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:27 pm

That is it, all that is were missing from the Neo geo CD, just the one game.
And believe me you aren't missing much.
But it’s not just ”that one game” now is it. Quite a few of the CD-games are enhanced in one way or another. Turfmasters has the Scotland course, Metal Slug has the combat school, Real bout Special has Blue Mary’s music video. Not to mention the cd-soundtrack that’s included in a lot of the titles.
Except to be honest, even among the hard core Neo geo Fans, no one cares about the Scotland Course, Combat School or Blue Mary's music video.
I think the Scotland course is awful, same for the combat school. It's like saying we need to support The Turbo Grafx Cd version of Alterbeast as it a better sound track despite it being the worst port of Alterbeast, even the NES port is a much better game.

Were not losing out on Neo Turf Masters or Metal Slug, Real bout Special don't benefit from a forgettable music video.

You want the core, you learn Verilog and VHDL and write it. Stop expecting others to do it for you.
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by DaveGeorge »

To each of his own I guess. Me, I love playing on both my AES and CDZ and think the extras on the discs make it worthwile from time to time.

I think you misundestand. I am in no way expecting anyone to do anything for me. My CDZ works just fine (but as everyone knows lasers do get worn out). But if anyone ever decides to make the core I’m not going to object and saying that it’s unnecessary because it’s ”just one game”.
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by dshadoff »

I'm sure that somebody will eventually get around to creating such a core, but for the moment, the developers I speak with are interested in creating either new features or new machine cores which have little or no overlap with existing cores.
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redsteakraw
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by redsteakraw »

I would say the demand for this core is low right now people are looking forward to the 32bit arcade / consoles being worked on. SegaCD and TurboCD had more of a compelling reason than this one. This has always been seen as a budget option for the NeoGeo and people always would prefer to have the real NeoGeo cart if they could afford one. Seeing how the current NeoGeo core is amazing and there are no load times once loaded up having a CD system and load wait times would be just annoying. For preservation purposes I can see the need for this but as a priority I would not put this pretty high. CoJag is a more important system IMHO.
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Missingno255
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by Missingno255 »

darksakul wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:51 am
DaveGeorge wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:54 pm
darksakul wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:27 pm

That is it, all that is were missing from the Neo geo CD, just the one game.
And believe me you aren't missing much.
But it’s not just ”that one game” now is it. Quite a few of the CD-games are enhanced in one way or another. Turfmasters has the Scotland course, Metal Slug has the combat school, Real bout Special has Blue Mary’s music video. Not to mention the cd-soundtrack that’s included in a lot of the titles.
Except to be honest, even among the hard core Neo geo Fans, no one cares about the Scotland Course, Combat School or Blue Mary's music video.
I think the Scotland course is awful, same for the combat school. It's like saying we need to support The Turbo Grafx Cd version of Alterbeast as it a better sound track despite it being the worst port of Alterbeast, even the NES port is a much better game.

Were not losing out on Neo Turf Masters or Metal Slug, Real bout Special don't benefit from a forgettable music video.

You want the core, you learn Verilog and VHDL and write it. Stop expecting others to do it for you.
You do realize that it's already half-way implemented in the source code for the Neo Geo core, right?
You want the core, you learn Verilog and VHDL and write it. Stop expecting others to do it for you.
Heh, speak for yourself. Not everyone knows how to program or has the talent to do so.
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darksakul
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by darksakul »

Missingno255 wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:52 am Heh, speak for yourself. Not everyone knows how to program or has the talent to do so.
NO. I will speak for the community on this one. As this is not fair to anyone who spends countless hours working on code.
These people put in countless hours of work into developing the software, and most never gets any compensation.

No one got the right to demand anything from anyone, especially here.
There alot of people who want this core or that core but not willing to put in any effort or contribute in anyways. They just want Free Software.
They need to get a reality check.

If you really want that core, learn to program, no if's and's or but's. I honestly don't care if you don't know how or have zero talent.
Skills come from practice and hard work and not just magically gifted to people at birth.
That isn't anyone fault but your own that you are unable and unwilling and expect everyone else to serve you on a sliver platter.

If you really want the core, make it happen then. Don't expect people to give up their time and money to contribute to a protect you are putting nothing into. If anything this thread is keeping the people who could work on the core to not want to out of spite, because self entitled people want a core with no contribution.

Be the change you want to see.
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by rhester72 »

@darksakul Sorry to say, but I'm eternally grateful most developers don't feel as you do.
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by dshadoff »

Truth is, as a developer, I can tell you that I (and pretty much all developers) will write the thing that I/we want to write.
A thread about how somebody wants such-and-such core is NOT going to change my thoughts about whether to write it or not... about 90% of the time.

What WOULD alter my thoughts about whether to work on something - in a POSITIVE way - include:
- enthusiastic people who have something to contribute - be it hardware, hardware-level analysis, software-level analysis, emulator-writing experiences (on that specific machine), etc.
- other developers who have partially-built portions and wish to collaborate
- people who have written test sets for the machine for validation
- people I have worked with before, who know how to provide good feedback on what's working and what's not

What would alter my thoughts about whether to work on something in a NEGATIVE way include:
- people who want something to the degree that they want to be first to possess a copy, but who would also be challenging in terms of support (i.e. a bug report should read "game xyz with CRC <xxxxx> has graphic corruption in the lower-right corner of the screen, after starting the game with character <y>", rather than "it doesn't work" - which is all too common, and utterly useless)
- people who wish for somebody to do something for them without effective collaboration, especially those who offer encouraging words such as "when will it be ready ?, what's taking so long ?", etc.
- criticism which provides no useful direction

I'll leave it at that, and you can judge for yourself whether this thread is going to persuade a developer who wasn't already going to write it.

..But one should also consider this... for somebody who was planning to write such a core for their own reasons anyway, does this thread pose an incentive or disincentive to release it to the public ?
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by rhester72 »

@dshadoff I in no way intended to slight developers. I've done OSS coding since long before it was known by any such cool term (we just called it software! LOL), and have been blessed to be able to contribute to a number of rather high-profile projects over the years. Still, the trope of addressing someone with passion with "learn to program!" is so old, combative and lacking nuance that it's an embarrassment to the hobby. It's like telling someone with car trouble to "learn to be a mechanic!". Easily said...not so easily done, and what fun would a world be if every consumer were required to be a producer first?

Yes, OSS development (particularly) is all about scratching an itch in one way or another, and yes, it can get old and tiring hearing non-stop requests, many from folks with little understanding or gratitude. If that grates on someone's nerves, I understand - but an appropriate response is to simply move on in silence, not to lambast them for 'not trying hard enough to learn to be a developer'. I truly detest the term, honestly - development skills are honed over a lifetime, you don't just 'learn to code' (particularly with someone as rarified as FPGA!).

The true irony here is that if Sorgelig had shared the same perspective as darksakul, MiSTer itself would not exist (at least not as a public project), which is why I took great offense. Sometimes, the best thing to say is truly nothing at all.
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by dshadoff »

@rhester72, I understand where you're coming from, but I don't agree with all of your points.

I do agree that "learn how to program" can sound harsh, as it is not a simple one-afternoon piece of work. You really need to want to learn how to do it, and to invest a substantial amount of time into the pursuit. And we can't expect everybody to do it. In fact, we can't expect anybody to do it just because we said so.
...This is *EXACTLY* the same way that saying "the core is important, so somebody should build it (for me)" is just as patronizing, and essentially disrespectful of the amount of work required.

"learn to be a mechanic" is not exactly the best metaphor here either: if you have a car and require a fix, mechanics are readily available at a price that is affordable for most people. If, on the other hand, mechanics were scarce, and the person with a car requiring a fix wanted it done for free, then the metaphor approaches equivalency. When your resource is scarce-to-non-existent and you really need something done, there really is no other way than to learn how to do it yourself (or accept the fact that you're not going to be driving your car).

This thread started as a simple request, which I don't think anybody immediately got upset over; there were some responses about why developers aren't excited about writing this core, but then the thread sort of devolved into:
"But I want it"
"The developers will build it if they feel like it, which frankly I don't think they do at the moment"
"But I want it"
...etc. for three pages.

At a certain point, it has to be said: If you have that much tenacity, you are ready to learn how to program.
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darksakul
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by darksakul »

rhester72 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:20 am The true irony here is that if Sorgelig had shared the same perspective as darksakul, MiSTer itself would not exist (at least not as a public project), which is why I took great offense. Sometimes, the best thing to say is truly nothing at all.
You miss the whole point. If you are really that unwavering and self-righteous you will find a way.
This MiSTer exist as Sorgelig wanted it and made it happen, he wanted to upgrade from the MiST and he wanted X, Y, and Z to exist with it.
The Analogue NT Mini, Super NT and Mega SG consoles exist as they went to Kevtris with a check and said "here can you make this" and Kevtris wanted to work on those consoles anyways.
The most garneted way to have a item made is ether do it your self or provide someone with actual incentive to do it for you.
Complaining about people not seeing your way isn't the way to make things happen. If you want to see a change happen, you have to be willing to commit.

I think eventually ether Neo Geo CD functions will be added to the existing Neo Geo Core or a stand alone Neo Geo CD core will be made.
But you have to wait if you don't want to add to any contribution.

There other ways people contribute without learning to program, like bug report once the core made, documenting behaviors and bugs in the actual hardware, providing financial or material assistance (many devs have a patreon or other crowdsourcing to cover their costs), few people even donated consoles and boards to devs so the devs can study the real hardware and have some real hardware to compare too.

Honestly the one who needs to say nothing is you rhester72. Who brings nothing to offer to the table other than your hallow "I want it" statements.
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rhester72
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by rhester72 »

darksakul wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:25 pmHonestly the one who needs to say nothing is you rhester72. Who brings nothing to offer to the table other than your hallow "I want it" statements.
Don't confuse me with the OP. I actually _don't_ want it (or, rather, I have zero interest in it one way or the other).
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by vgesoterica »

CD functionality would be awesome. A handful of awesome exclusives that would be great on MiSTer
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Captain FPGA
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by Captain FPGA »

mcj wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 9:44 pm Having a NeoGeo CD core would simply be bliss! I do hope that some brave soul steps up to the plate to knock it out for the MiSTer!

With the recent new development of the libretro neocd core, there is now a lot more research done looking into the accuracy of NeoGeo CD hardware, specifically the CD controller.

And while many in this thread mention long load times, this video illustrates what it could look like in the core as well with a CD Load Skipping hack, also found in the neocd core. The best part of that video is really that it is demonstrated using one of the absolute worst offenders of the load screen.

All of that said, it really would be quite an endeavor and assuredly not an easy one. I do hope to play some Neo Turf Masters CD on the MiSTer someday!
Yeah, I enjoy music from that game.
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