Neo Geo CD

akeley
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by akeley »

dshadoff wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:40 pm If there’s no core, it’s because there are no developers interested enough to put it at the top of their priority list. Not to say that they will never do it, but it just isn’t interesting enough to them yet (evidently because something else is). This has no particular relationship to how many non-developers want such a core, or how badly any one of them thinks they want it. It has been said before, but this isn’t a corporation running a help desk to service requests… it’s hobbyists writing code for themselves, and sharing.
You're speaking for yourself, and perhaps some other devs you know really well. This is not a closed pool however. There are people from "outside" contributing to the project all the time, and they might have completely different motivations and influences.

It's only logical that expressing interest in cores - or features - might cause somebody to actually start working on it (latest example: Apple II disk write support) and there is nothing wrong with it as long as it's done in respectable and reasonable manner.

So my message to the lurkers and passer-bys is: keep at it, and don't mind the local grumbling. But also, don't expect something will happen overnight - or ever. One of the great things about MiSTer is that unpredictability: you never know what surprise you'll get next week, but there is no doubt that the project is constantly evolving.
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by dshadoff »

It’s just a statement of fact. A new developer who really wants to see this core could learn HDL and work on it (as some comments have encouraged), or another developer could finish what they’re working on and find this as the next item on their list to work on. But if it doesn’t exist today, that hasn’t happened yet. Simple as that. Positive comments might slightly adjust the timing for someone who had already considered developing it.

Talk about a community being toxic or an “I asked for it a while ago, why isn’t it here yet dammit ?” attitude is only going to dissuade devs from this core and from contributing in general. My helpdesk comparison was in response to those types of comments.
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by akeley »

dshadoff wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:55 am Talk about a community being toxic or an “I asked for it a while ago, why isn’t it here yet dammit ?” attitude is only going to dissuade devs from this core and from contributing in general. My helpdesk comparison was in response to those types of comments.
I don't really see these types of comments here - it's more of your, and few other people's projection. And the remark about toxicity has merit in the light of endless patronizing "lrn2code" (or worse) replies, or full-on shitstorms like the one from yesterday. It's something that is much more likely to put people off from participating, and what in fact I've heard numerous times outside of this very niche forum.

Yes, the fact the core is not here definitely means it's not here. That indeed is a fact, but the rest - as to why that is or what might/might not happen in the future is an opinion. There might be a dev who will simply pop out of the blue next week and do it because he was looking to contribute and saw interest in this core - or it might never happen. In any case, these threads don't do any harm, and if they irritate anybody, they can be simply ignored.

Anyway, I'm not here to argue about it (it's rather clear we don't agree on that) just to present another point of view to non-regulars who read this forum.
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Captain FPGA
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by Captain FPGA »

darksakul wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:14 pm I was going to ignore this thread, but I got notification of a reply.
Captain FPGA wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:09 am There are plenty of Neo CD fans. Nobody honestly knows if there's real interest in putting in work for the core or if there isn't.
No one know's if there real interest is where I am getting at, sure there edge cases who actually value the Neo CD (for some ungodly reason).
I saying people don't have interest because it's true, they don't. (The hypothetical numbers here just to put values on what I seen online) If out of survey of 1000 people, 100 said No we don't need CD support, 2 said yes, and the 898 ether don't care ether way or undecided. That is those 2 people going to convince? It may as well be zero for all it matters.

Most people who are into Neo Geo ether:
A. Saw/played them in the arcades
B. Saw/played them in the arcades, owned a home AES or Neo CD back in the 90s
C. Saw/played them in the Arcades, played later ports on like the PS2 (or later consoles) or Emulation
D. Never saw the Arcades, Played them on later ports like the PS2 (or later consoles) and/or Emulation
E. Saw/played them in the arcades, now owns a MVS, AES, or Neo CD years later
F. Never saw the Arcades, Never had them at home, never played Emulation or Ports.

So out of B, how many seen, know of or even played Neo CD? No anyone even knows?
All of the ports and most of the emulation ignores Neo CD. So no one really knows what they are missing.

We see cores made as someone felt ether nostalgic for that core, or thought it interesting and worth attention.
You are obviously Nostalgic and passionate about Neo Geo CD support, problem is the way you going to go about it is going to get people who share opinions like I expressed to double down on their "We need no CD Support".

For most people its, "why we need to support that 1 RPG no one played or cared about" and that what is going to hang over this entire thing.
Just telling the other groups who are disinterested or undecided that "they are wrong" isn't what going to get this going ether, as they just dismiss you. I starting to change my mind, but I went from opposed to don't care.
Captain FPGA wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:09 am Saying people don't have interest in a core like that would be like saying folks aren't interested in a Sega Saturn/Sega CD core.
Except people did spoke up, a overwhelming amount of people spoke up about having Saturn and PS1 Support, and a Sega CD Core and Turbo Grafx CD support is already made.
Your Statement is a bad comparison, it's a false equivalence. There actual titles on the Saturn, Sega CD, and PS1 that seen no where else.
I speaking of titles not the extras or alternate sound tracks, extra levels and omakes. It's why people go and say its just one game.
Each system to be made into a core needs to be looked at individually on their own merits, and not compared/contrasted to other cores.

The one way this is going to get off the ground is if a passionate and nostalgic individual also leads the development of the core.
Or you get people excited about that little piece of NG history that getting overlooked.
Just sayin', claiming that "no one" cares about the Neo CD? Literally Smh. The thing sold 500,000 units clearly people cared. Regardless of whether it's enough to challenge other hardware or replace the cartridge platforms is another argument. I reject this argument whole sale that it isn't cherished by Neo Geo fans or die-hards.

The intent behind my statement isn't to belittle the Sega CD or Saturn. It's just odd to me that someone would go way out of their way to attack the Neo CD diminishing it's value. The implication there would be if I said the only thing Saturn is good for are fighters or the Sega CD was nothing more than a glorified movie sim. These were talking points pushed by fans of other machines.

Didn't make them necessarily true for everyone, just it's very elitist and divisive. I wouldn't say that about neither console because I love my Saturn, Dreamcast, Mega CD, and Neo CD just about the same. You on the other hand talk about how we shouldn't compare and contrast, you just did it though.

Talking about how those systems had exclusive titles implying because the Neo CD had fewer that should some how justify even giving a Neo CD core the time of day? You should have led with let's judge these systems on their own merits and left it at that.
You are obviously Nostalgic and passionate about Neo Geo CD support, problem is the way you going to go about it is going to get people who share opinions like I expressed to double down on their "We need no CD Support".
By disagreeing with your assessment that nobody cares about Metal Slugs combat school or Mary's music video? Don't conflate defending those exclusive some retro gamers cherish with bashing other consoles or whatever you thought I was doing. I think it's fair game to argue against these narratives and if that prevents people from making a core that 10s of thousands would enjoy, that isn't going to change my position in the slightest. It will disappoint some and they'll move on. Not the end of the world.

To be clear, never said it's wrong to diminish a given hardware for one they perceive is lack of games or whatever. It's more like I'm saying your critiques are harsh and unnecessary. I will say one thing doubling down on "no core" isn't up to you. So that makes one less person big deal. If you're coming into this topic with nothing but negative things to say about the machine, you probably had your mind made up already.

When I first beat RBS over my friends house we all had fond memories of that music video and the sprite art involved. I also happen to like the music from said video. It was cool because it's unexpected to a simple fighting game to deliver this type of presentation. As a fellow artist I appreciated the hell out of it.

I won't get into the other two or that one exclusive on the Neo CD but it goes without saying not everyone is going to think the Neo CD is "bad". Finally, I still contest there are a lot of people out there who'd be interested in such a core. It's Neo Geo after all and apart of original SNK's legacy. Also, those PS2 ports that you mentioned, carried some of those NeoCD tracks, as did the Saturn, PSX, etc. People who are fans of the Saturn and Playstation ports of Neo Geo games I'm sure will have a fond appreciation for these tracks. It's not to say all of them will but, I wouldn't under-estimate the appeal for this thing.
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twonunpackmule
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by twonunpackmule »

Captain FPGA wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:20 pm
darksakul wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:14 pm I was going to ignore this thread, but I got notification of a reply.
It's just a person projecting their world view onto others. Typical internet.
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by Captain FPGA »

twonunpackmule wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:03 pm
Captain FPGA wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:20 pm
darksakul wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:14 pm I was going to ignore this thread, but I got notification of a reply.
It's just a person projecting their world view onto others. Typical internet.
And what did he do?
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dshadoff
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by dshadoff »

Captain FPGA wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:20 pm Just sayin', claiming that "no one" cares about the Neo CD? Literally Smh. The thing sold 500,000 units clearly people cared. Regardless of whether it's enough to challenge other hardware or replace the cartridge platforms is another argument. I reject this argument whole sale that it isn't cherished by Neo Geo fans or die-hards.
I'm not sure about other people, but I'm certainly not questioning the fact that somebody wants the core.

However:
a) Developers want to do something else more.
b) Nobody wants the core enough to learn how to build it themselves.

I was told in this thread that nobody is demanding developers to write the core, that this is simply my projection...

I find it's the reverse: that the statement "you could learn to program it" is somehow offensive... this is a projection. It's neither offensive in and of itself, nor has it been said in a way that is meant as offensive.

Every developer on this system has learned how to program because they really wanted to get the result. I learned FPGA programming because I wanted a FPGA core for the PC Engine to improve on emulation (it turned out that srg320 beat me to it, but I was fully prepared to work through it). This is also true of GreyRougue and other developers. We weren't all FPGA programmers from day one - that's nonsense. Sure, some were procedural programmers before - but in the overwhelming majority of cases, they learned that themselves too, because they wanted it that much.

So "learn" is not an offensive statement at all - it's meant as an encouragement, and an empowering statement.
Captain FPGA wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:20 pm The intent behind my statement isn't to belittle the Sega CD or Saturn. It's just odd to me that someone would go way out of their way to attack the Neo CD diminishing it's value.
Nobody is belittling it or trying to diminish its value.
However:
srg320 preferred to write a Saturn core.
FPGAzumspass preferred to write PSX.
Furrtek didn't continue on NeoCD core because he returned to decapping chips - and to build the NeoSD Loader device because people like the machine.
There is only one of each of these people.

I don't know, maybe one day, one of these developers will work on it. Or perhaps one of the posters here might.
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by Captain FPGA »

dshadoff wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:57 pm
Captain FPGA wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:20 pm Just sayin', claiming that "no one" cares about the Neo CD? Literally Smh. The thing sold 500,000 units clearly people cared. Regardless of whether it's enough to challenge other hardware or replace the cartridge platforms is another argument. I reject this argument whole sale that it isn't cherished by Neo Geo fans or die-hards.
I'm not sure about other people, but I'm certainly not questioning the fact that somebody wants the core.

However:
a) Developers want to do something else more.
b) Nobody wants the core enough to learn how to build it themselves.

I was told in this thread that nobody is demanding developers to write the core, that this is simply my projection...

I find it's the reverse: that the statement "you could learn to program it" is somehow offensive... this is a projection. It's neither offensive in and of itself, nor has it been said in a way that is meant as offensive.

Every developer on this system has learned how to program because they really wanted to get the result. I learned FPGA programming because I wanted a FPGA core for the PC Engine to improve on emulation (it turned out that srg320 beat me to it, but I was fully prepared to work through it). This is also true of GreyRougue and other developers. We weren't all FPGA programmers from day one - that's nonsense. Sure, some were procedural programmers before - but in the overwhelming majority of cases, they learned that themselves too, because they wanted it that much.

So "learn" is not an offensive statement at all - it's meant as an encouragement, and an empowering statement.
Captain FPGA wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:20 pm The intent behind my statement isn't to belittle the Sega CD or Saturn. It's just odd to me that someone would go way out of their way to attack the Neo CD diminishing it's value.
Nobody is belittling it or trying to diminish its value.
However:
srg320 preferred to write a Saturn core.
FPGAzumspass preferred to write PSX.
Furrtek didn't continue on NeoCD core because he returned to decapping chips - and to build the NeoSD Loader device because people like the machine.
There is only one of each of these people.

I don't know, maybe one day, one of these developers will work on it. Or perhaps one of the posters here might.
First of all, thank you so much for explaining the intent behind asking people to learn how to program a core if they like them enough. I can see how some might think it's just a way to dismiss people but after you explained it I feel differently now.

However, I don't think I was trying to imply saying something like that would be offensive? If I did then I definitely forgot. Correct me if I'm wrong but perhaps you were trying to address someone else?

Furrtek did a gr8 job with the SD Loader. I'm glad he made these available for the front loader.
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by dshadoff »

Sorry, the reply was not specifically directed at you - it was a general response to what seems to have become largely a "side A" and "side B" conversation.
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by the_importer »

The NEO-GEO CD is a strange beast. It was released for the soul purpose of trying to sell NEO-GEO AES hardware and software to people who couldn't afford the cart versions. Only a handful of titles are exclusives to the system and some of them aren't even games at all. IMPO, this system should not be a priority over most other systems.
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by Moondandy »

Is the hardware drastically different from the AVS/MVS? Would someone need to make a whole new core, or would it be possible to add NGCD support to the existing core?

I have a NGCD and agree it would be nice to have it added to MiSTer one day, if someone was so inclined to do so.
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by dshadoff »

It's probably possible to add to the existing core (but I don't know the details).
Unless a technical barrier exists (such as shortage of resources), this would be the approach that should be taken.
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by the_importer »

0x15e wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:31 pm
the_importer wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:57 am The NEO-GEO CD is a strange beast. It was released for the soul purpose of trying to sell NEO-GEO AES hardware and software to people who couldn't afford the cart versions. Only a handful of titles are exclusives to the system and some of them aren't even games at all. IMPO, this system should not be a priority over most other systems.
The thing is that so much of the hard work is already done. Aside from the bios, CD drive, some sound limitations, and using ram instead of rom, there isn't a huge difference. If you look back in the Neo Geo core commit history, you can see where furrtek was working on it (attempting to hook up the bios at least). If it was a big architecture change I would completely agree that it's not worth the effort but it just feels so close that it's disappointing and frustrating that it might never be finished.

Has anyone ever heard from furrtek about why it wasn't completed? If there's a technical reason I'll be perfectly happy to shut up about this. If it was more of a "diminishing returns" situation, I'll just have to hold out hope that someone picks it up eventually - maybe after the other high profile CD systems (PSX and Saturn) are done.

I know there are plans for a dedicated MRA-based MVS core at some point... Maybe that could reinvigorate interest or turn up some new information that would make NGCD support easier.

Unfortunately even though I'm a programmer for my day job I don't know nearly enough about emulation, let alone fpga dev to do anything with it, otherwise I'd have a go at it myself.
I'd personally prefer a NEO-GEO Pocket Color core over a NEO-GEO CD core 😸
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by Moondandy »

NGPC will definitely happen, Robert had expressed interest however Jotego had said he would do it. I expect someone will do it within the next year, hopefully Robert after he has finished the PS1.
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by madmax »

The only thing I miss with the neo geo cd are the soundrack of Samurai Spirits 1-4 and the RPG but that game alone justify a neogeo cd core.
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by LXZ »

Just wanted to do a quick +1 that I think it would be awesome to have MiSTer support Neo Geo CD. Not looking to debate what is better or inferior, I am interested in completeness, conservation, preservation and simply exploring a catalogue I never had the chance to explore in the best possible way. So any dev who wants to make it happen: Please do not be deterred by any negativity
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by dshadoff »

Dev’s are not likely going to be deterred by what you may perceive as negativity. And in fact, I don’t see anybody arguing against whether it ultimately ought to be added. After all, there is a predisposition toward completeness among developers, as you mention.

But as long as there are other projects they would prefer to do, those projects will get done first.
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Re: Neo Geo CD

Unread post by haightc »

I also would love NeoGeo CD support, I like my front loader but the drive can be a bit flakey and I am still waiting for my SDloader from furtek
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