That's no evidence at all. This was a new process and things were not all sussed out properly. There are plenty of people including directors (which I am not) who had discussions in the privates channels which you are not privy to. Using lies to prove your point wont get you anywhere in the long run.
New distribution system for Jotego cores
Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores
Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores
The last bugs are possibly CPU related and has Jotego stumped. The bugs that are left are significant enough to make things feel buggy. He let his patreon supporters choose whether to release the core now or wait for it to be polished up more and we chose to wait.
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores
You aren't "the voice", and neither was I. There were loads of people on twitter responding to Jotego in JTFPGA patrons channel, on the MiSTer FPGA discord, on twitter, etc... Well before you said anything publicly and well before Jotego said he was going to ask theypsilon to have it changed from opt-out to opt-in. I stated that I and lots of other people pushed back, I didn't say that I was some hero.atrac17 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:20 amIt is, it made life so much easier. I didn't see 1k+ people who can't copy files to a directory complaining. Nor complaining that there ROM files were not fetched. Again, this isn't the official MiSTer_Updater script. DRM or not, it's not a big deal. Also, I'm the voice that suggested it be set to off. Not you. Stop acting like you're the hero birdybro.
Also, it's a box you play illegal roms on. Let's talk about laws and licensing everybody. JFC.
I don't disagree that it has made life easier, I literally said the same thing in the post you quoted. There are other posts, tweest, and chat messages of mine you obviously have ignored where I defend the decision from that perspective because it's an unnecessary load of tickets. My main problem with it was that it was originally opt-out. I still don't like the aesthetics of what looks like early 2000's shareware overlays on the MiSTer that promote people to pay into his patreon for access to the software. Paying for emulators, despite it being something I already effectively do in some way with a long list of core devs I support, is still something I feel weird about.
You also didn't respond to my main point where I pointed out that it's a bit of an exaggeration to call key license files "ingenious" in 2021. If you are offended, it's only because I had a sensible reaction to your dramaticization of a fairly mundane detail of a good solution to a real problem.
I also don't think I've talked about licensing or laws in any strong way on this at all. Jotego also said he would remove the GPL from all his work over time to address these concerns, and that's awesome, yet another win in the marketplace of ideas where a developer listens to feedback from their users. I'm glad Jotego has a more mature public attitude than you do toward feedback.
tldr; I've been consistent. It aesthetically rubs me the wrong way, I think it makes sense, opt-out was bad, people pushed back en masse, changing it to opt-in was awesome and I'm glad all of our feedback (including yours) was listened to. Revisionism of the timeline of events is unnecessary because a developer listening to their users' feedback is a GOOD thing. IDGAF about laws and licensing honestly.
See said evidence here with timestamps --> viewtopic.php?p=27801#p27801suverman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:39 amThat's no evidence at all. This was a new process and things were not all sussed out properly. There are plenty of people including directors (which I am not) who had discussions in the privates channels which you are not privy to. Using lies to prove your point wont get you anywhere in the long run.
birdybro~
Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores
See said evidence here with timestamps --> viewtopic.php?p=27801#p27801suverman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:39 amThat's no evidence at all. This was a new process and things were not all sussed out properly. There are plenty of people including directors (which I am not) who had discussions in the privates channels which you are not privy to. Using lies to prove your point wont get you anywhere in the long run.
[/quote]
Stop cherrypicking. I don't have the time or inclination to produce "evidences", but you are wrong. I am out of this conversation, I wanted people to realise what you saying is not true. I have no interest or time talking to you.
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores
People can make up their own minds, I provided evidence with timestamps, you provided conjecture. Whatever.
To be clear, if I'm wrong I gladly welcome evidence to the contrary and have zero problem with admitting I'm wrong. You do whatever you want to do. I was justifying my position because I believe things based on the evidence that I can see. I'm not going to just refrain from defending myself from accusations of me lying or something, when I'm not. It's not lying if the evidence I have seen shows what I believe to be true. If there is more evidence that shows what I believe is not true, then I will change my mind.
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores
Meanwhile I can't wait to see if the recent Moto 68k bugfixes might benefit other non-JT cores. Time will tell. All I can say is it's really exciting to see you devs rock this party like a hurricane. Send me updates over 110-baaud smoke signals, I have no rights to complain either way.
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores
...
I'm sure you all do. There aren't directors that have input. It's birdybro, birdybro alone.
It wasn't something that kintrix came to me about.
It was all you guys who "know" what's up.
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores
Bro, I can't post private group chats or DM's between me and kitrinx. This was something that was decided by the directors with the solution provided.aberu wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:17 pmYou aren't "the voice", and neither was I. There were loads of people on twitter responding to Jotego in JTFPGA patrons channel, on the MiSTer FPGA discord, on twitter, etc... Well before you said anything publicly and well before Jotego said he was going to ask theypsilon to have it changed from opt-out to opt-in. I stated that I and lots of other people pushed back, I didn't say that I was some hero.atrac17 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:20 amIt is, it made life so much easier. I didn't see 1k+ people who can't copy files to a directory complaining. Nor complaining that there ROM files were not fetched. Again, this isn't the official MiSTer_Updater script. DRM or not, it's not a big deal. Also, I'm the voice that suggested it be set to off. Not you. Stop acting like you're the hero birdybro.
Also, it's a box you play illegal roms on. Let's talk about laws and licensing everybody. JFC.
I don't disagree that it has made life easier, I literally said the same thing in the post you quoted. There are other posts, tweest, and chat messages of mine you obviously have ignored where I defend the decision from that perspective because it's an unnecessary load of tickets. My main problem with it was that it was originally opt-out. I still don't like the aesthetics of what looks like early 2000's shareware overlays on the MiSTer that promote people to pay into his patreon for access to the software. Paying for emulators, despite it being something I already effectively do in some way with a long list of core devs I support, is still something I feel weird about.
You also didn't respond to my main point where I pointed out that it's a bit of an exaggeration to call key license files "ingenious" in 2021. If you are offended, it's only because I had a sensible reaction to your dramaticization of a fairly mundane detail of a good solution to a real problem.
I also don't think I've talked about licensing or laws in any strong way on this at all. Jotego also said he would remove the GPL from all his work over time to address these concerns, and that's awesome, yet another win in the marketplace of ideas where a developer listens to feedback from their users. I'm glad Jotego has a more mature public attitude than you do toward feedback.
tldr; I've been consistent. It aesthetically rubs me the wrong way, I think it makes sense, opt-out was bad, people pushed back en masse, changing it to opt-in was awesome and I'm glad all of our feedback (including yours) was listened to. Revisionism of the timeline of events is unnecessary because a developer listening to their users' feedback is a GOOD thing. IDGAF about laws and licensing honestly.
See said evidence here with timestamps --> viewtopic.php?p=27801#p27801suverman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:39 amThat's no evidence at all. This was a new process and things were not all sussed out properly. There are plenty of people including directors (which I am not) who had discussions in the privates channels which you are not privy to. Using lies to prove your point wont get you anywhere in the long run.
Honestly, it was pointless to even bring it up. I'll go back to the real world while everybody else here that doesn't know what's going on lives in fantasy... It's cool....
Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores
You will not bait me to share "evidence" what goes on in DMs and closed channels. Stop.aberu wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 3:00 pmPeople can make up their own minds, I provided evidence with timestamps, you provided conjecture. Whatever.
To be clear, if I'm wrong I gladly welcome evidence to the contrary and have zero problem with admitting I'm wrong. You do whatever you want to do. I was justifying my position because I believe things based on the evidence that I can see. I'm not going to just refrain from defending myself from accusations of me lying or something, when I'm not. It's not lying if the evidence I have seen shows what I believe to be true. If there is more evidence that shows what I believe is not true, then I will change my mind.
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores
Not sure why you are accusing me of attacking people. They are the ones calling me names, talking trash, being aggressive, I've just provided evidence, and provided my opinion on the aesthetics of having a demo core with a big banner advertising to go to patreon and give money to unlock it. You on the other hand, seem to be making highly misleading negative comments against Jotego and his project...
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=2757&p=27992#p27992
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=2683&p=27524#p27524
Both of these things are basically conspiracy theories, so I think you should take your own advice, personally.
I never claimed that it was me alone, I never claimed you and Kitrinx didn't bring it up prior to anyone else. I don't know why you care that much about being "the first person" or whatever. Such a bizarre ego. You can have it. All hail king Atrac17, first person to privately come up with a mundane common sense proposal to change it so that people have to opt-in to receive the beta adware cores.
The new official story is that Jotego ignored all of the public feedback on the opt-in by default in the script, and he only listened to you. Got it. Such is the decree of King Atrac17, author of JTFPGA history.
No, I'm not baiting you. I'm describing to you how knowledge works because people started calling me a liar and trashing on me. I have a justified true belief that is based on evidence, that Jotego did the right thing and listened to feedback and said he would tell the dev of the script to change it so you would need to opt-in to receive the beta core instead of needing to opt-out of it to not receive the core.
My opinion is not trashing on Jotego or attacking any of you people that seem to be quick to jump to the defense of Jotego in this misguided angry way. My opinion is he did the right thing, he does an amazing job on the cores he works on and continues to improve, and I still find the big ad overlay in a beta core on the MiSTer to be kinda aesthetically displeasing.
Stop putting me in some black and white "this is our enemy" camp or something. It's embarrassing.
I'm not asking you to post that. I'm asking you all to stop calling me a liar and trashing on me for having observed things with my own two eyes, justified my position by providing evidence for what I saw with my own two eyes, and having an opinion of Jotego that is very favorable because of how he handled the feedback. I don't get why you are so offended.atrac17 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:26 pm Bro, I can't post private group chats or DM's between me and kitrinx. This was something that was decided by the directors with the solution provided.
Honestly, it was pointless to even bring it up. I'll go back to the real world while everybody else here that doesn't know what's going on lives in fantasy... It's cool....
birdybro~
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores
I would just like the arcade organizer to categorize the jotega beta cores and especially the patreon cores. Keep them out of the main list for now. Just a CPS2 folder alone would be a big help.
Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores
I have a Capcom - CPS2 folder created by arcade organizer with all the CPS2 mras in it?
Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores
Is there any way to just opt into the Open Beta stuff, but not the Closed Betas?
I don't want to start a game and find out it's locked only when it has loaded. It's frustrating.
I don't want to start a game and find out it's locked only when it has loaded. It's frustrating.
Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores
Nope. He rearranged his releases so that jtbin contains both open and closed betas, and 'jtstable' contains public cores but at a slower cadence than 'jtbin'.
Previously everyone just pulled from jtbin, but now the default is jtstable. Everyone WANTS the open beta cores though, so I bet a large percentage of people opt into it, and experience the issue you are having.
When it was initially said things were being made opt-in, I fully expected a 'jtpatreon' repo to show up that people could opt into. But that's not what we got. Oh well.
Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores
I understand Jotego's need for support, but this implementation is not a good user experience. It's rather off-putting that they're using bundling like a cable company does.zakk4223 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:29 amNope. He rearranged his releases so that jtbin contains both open and closed betas, and 'jtstable' contains public cores but at a slower cadence than 'jtbin'.
Previously everyone just pulled from jtbin, but now the default is jtstable. Everyone WANTS the open beta cores though, so I bet a large percentage of people opt into it, and experience the issue you are having.
When it was initially said things were being made opt-in, I fully expected a 'jtpatreon' repo to show up that people could opt into. But that's not what we got. Oh well.
So alright, how do I un-pollute my SD card then? Do I have to reinstall everything?
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores
just delete the jts16.rfb and jts16a2.rbf files from the arcade/core
then Action Fighter (World, S16A) [FD1089A 317-0018].mra
Alex Kidd The Lost Stars (Set 2, World, S16A) [No Protection].mra
Body Slam (World, S16) [8751 317-0015].mra
Fantasy Zone (Rev A, World, S16A) [No Protection].mra
Shinobi (Set 6, World, S16A) [No Protection].mra from the arcade folder.
once you've done that.. if you want to, delete the organizer folder and re-run the organizer script. it will re-create the organizer folder without those mra's
then Action Fighter (World, S16A) [FD1089A 317-0018].mra
Alex Kidd The Lost Stars (Set 2, World, S16A) [No Protection].mra
Body Slam (World, S16) [8751 317-0015].mra
Fantasy Zone (Rev A, World, S16A) [No Protection].mra
Shinobi (Set 6, World, S16A) [No Protection].mra from the arcade folder.
once you've done that.. if you want to, delete the organizer folder and re-run the organizer script. it will re-create the organizer folder without those mra's
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores
Appreciate it. I realize it shouldn't bother me so much, but of course it had to show up while I had company over. It was their favorite game and it was awkward.
I appreciate Jotego and their work, just wish the preview status was more visible to avoid frustration/embarrassment.
I appreciate Jotego and their work, just wish the preview status was more visible to avoid frustration/embarrassment.
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores
Let me see if I understand the situation.
Jotego is taking GPL2-licensed code, linking it with his own code, and distributing the resulting binaries without providing the full source.
Is that assessment correct?
Jotego is taking GPL2-licensed code, linking it with his own code, and distributing the resulting binaries without providing the full source.
Is that assessment correct?
Converters I've written: Floppy DIM/FDI/FDD/HDM to D88, D88 to XDF, Tape SVI 318/328 CAS to WAV
Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores
Spark_Tek wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:18 amI understand Jotego's need for support, but this implementation is not a good user experience. It's rather off-putting that they're using bundling like a cable company does.zakk4223 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:29 amNope. He rearranged his releases so that jtbin contains both open and closed betas, and 'jtstable' contains public cores but at a slower cadence than 'jtbin'.
Previously everyone just pulled from jtbin, but now the default is jtstable. Everyone WANTS the open beta cores though, so I bet a large percentage of people opt into it, and experience the issue you are having.
When it was initially said things were being made opt-in, I fully expected a 'jtpatreon' repo to show up that people could opt into. But that's not what we got. Oh well.
So alright, how do I un-pollute my SD card then? Do I have to reinstall everything?
So Jose (and Alexey, Sergey and so many others) is pretty much god's gift to retrogaming, but you liken his beta versions to pollution...? C'mon, you're better than that.
Just tell your friends that you don't support the work that's being done and they'll understand why you can't show off the full potential of your MiSTer yet. There's nothing awkward about it whatsoever.
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores
He uses his own framework --> https://github.com/jotego/jtframe - and it's open sourced completely. So that assessment is not correct.pgimeno wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:50 pm Let me see if I understand the situation.
Jotego is taking GPL2-licensed code, linking it with his own code, and distributing the resulting binaries without providing the full source.
Is that assessment correct?
EDIT: And yes he has some stuff modified in his framework from Sorgelig's and others' code (as does the MiSTer project from MiST before it), but this is irrelevant since the framework is open source.
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores
it's not a question of pollution (badly chosen word) it's a beta version which isn't fully available unless you're a patreon of JT.. (which is fair enough) however, if you aren't a patreon these unplayable mra's/zips and rbf files take up room on your sdcard and appear in games lists. no one is devaluing the incredible work JT, Sorg and others are doing.
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores
That's not strictly true. If you distribute a binary which contains or links with GPLed code (and you don't have some other license to that code - either by negotiating with its original authors, or by having written it entirely yourself and thus being free to relicense it however you wish) - then you're duty bound to make the corresponding source available to anyone who wants it. ("The “Corresponding Source” for a work in object code form means all the source code needed to generate, install, and (for an executable work) run the object code and to modify the work, including scripts to control those activities." -- GPL 3.0)
The "beta test" argument that's sometimes put forward doesn't hold a lot of water, and it's clearly circumventing the intent of the GPL even if the argument itself were ever found to be valid. (I don't *think* that argument's been tested in court as yet?)
Nonetheless, Jotego does do amazing work, and is clearly acting in good faith, with an established history of releasing source once he's happy with the cores - so there's little to be gained by making waves about it.
And let's face it, the only way to enforce the GPL is legal action. I can't imagine any of the authors of the GPLed code in question caring enough to take it that far!
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores
All good points. Almost all beta cores with patreons are this way however, so your last sentence is spot on!robinsonb5 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:38 pmThat's not strictly true. If you distribute a binary which contains or links with GPLed code (and you don't have some other license to that code - either by negotiating with its original authors, or by having written it entirely yourself and thus being free to relicense it however you wish) - then you're duty bound to make the corresponding source available to anyone who wants it. ("The “Corresponding Source” for a work in object code form means all the source code needed to generate, install, and (for an executable work) run the object code and to modify the work, including scripts to control those activities." -- GPL 3.0)
The "beta test" argument that's sometimes put forward doesn't hold a lot of water, and it's clearly circumventing the intent of the GPL even if the argument itself were ever found to be valid. (I don't *think* that argument's been tested in court as yet?)
Nonetheless, Jotego does do amazing work, and is clearly acting in good faith, with an established history of releasing source once he's happy with the cores - so there's little to be gained by making waves about it.
And let's face it, the only way to enforce the GPL is legal action. I can't imagine any of the authors of the GPLed code in question caring enough to take it that far!
birdybro~