New distribution system for Jotego cores

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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores

Unread post by suverman »

aberu wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:07 pm

But to those of us who were paying attention and providing this feedback, the evidence is clear as day that the original plan was to automatically start pushing out what is essentially adware to users that were completely unaware of the situation.
That's no evidence at all. This was a new process and things were not all sussed out properly. There are plenty of people including directors (which I am not) who had discussions in the privates channels which you are not privy to. Using lies to prove your point wont get you anywhere in the long run.
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores

Unread post by dawshan »

Does anyone know why progress of the CPS 2 core halted after the "final beta" and focus shifted to System 16 core?
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores

Unread post by FatSlob71 »

They want to make you wait another 3 months
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores

Unread post by dmckean »

The last bugs are possibly CPU related and has Jotego stumped. The bugs that are left are significant enough to make things feel buggy. He let his patreon supporters choose whether to release the core now or wait for it to be polished up more and we chose to wait.
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores

Unread post by aberu »

atrac17 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:20 am
aberu wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:08 pm So DRM has come to MiSTer? Kinda ironic. :P

Like it's a good thing to make it a little easier on patrons, it's a little over the top to call it ingenious imo, since having keys to use software has been around since the earliest days of software :P
It is, it made life so much easier. I didn't see 1k+ people who can't copy files to a directory complaining. Nor complaining that there ROM files were not fetched. Again, this isn't the official MiSTer_Updater script. DRM or not, it's not a big deal. Also, I'm the voice that suggested it be set to off. Not you. Stop acting like you're the hero birdybro.

Also, it's a box you play illegal roms on. Let's talk about laws and licensing everybody. JFC.
You aren't "the voice", and neither was I. There were loads of people on twitter responding to Jotego in JTFPGA patrons channel, on the MiSTer FPGA discord, on twitter, etc... Well before you said anything publicly and well before Jotego said he was going to ask theypsilon to have it changed from opt-out to opt-in. I stated that I and lots of other people pushed back, I didn't say that I was some hero.

I don't disagree that it has made life easier, I literally said the same thing in the post you quoted. There are other posts, tweest, and chat messages of mine you obviously have ignored where I defend the decision from that perspective because it's an unnecessary load of tickets. My main problem with it was that it was originally opt-out. I still don't like the aesthetics of what looks like early 2000's shareware overlays on the MiSTer that promote people to pay into his patreon for access to the software. Paying for emulators, despite it being something I already effectively do in some way with a long list of core devs I support, is still something I feel weird about.

You also didn't respond to my main point where I pointed out that it's a bit of an exaggeration to call key license files "ingenious" in 2021. If you are offended, it's only because I had a sensible reaction to your dramaticization of a fairly mundane detail of a good solution to a real problem.

I also don't think I've talked about licensing or laws in any strong way on this at all. Jotego also said he would remove the GPL from all his work over time to address these concerns, and that's awesome, yet another win in the marketplace of ideas where a developer listens to feedback from their users. I'm glad Jotego has a more mature public attitude than you do toward feedback.

tldr; I've been consistent. It aesthetically rubs me the wrong way, I think it makes sense, opt-out was bad, people pushed back en masse, changing it to opt-in was awesome and I'm glad all of our feedback (including yours) was listened to. Revisionism of the timeline of events is unnecessary because a developer listening to their users' feedback is a GOOD thing. IDGAF about laws and licensing honestly.
suverman wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:39 am
aberu wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:07 pm

But to those of us who were paying attention and providing this feedback, the evidence is clear as day that the original plan was to automatically start pushing out what is essentially adware to users that were completely unaware of the situation.
That's no evidence at all. This was a new process and things were not all sussed out properly. There are plenty of people including directors (which I am not) who had discussions in the privates channels which you are not privy to. Using lies to prove your point wont get you anywhere in the long run.
See said evidence here with timestamps --> viewtopic.php?p=27801#p27801
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores

Unread post by suverman »

suverman wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:39 am
aberu wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:07 pm

But to those of us who were paying attention and providing this feedback, the evidence is clear as day that the original plan was to automatically start pushing out what is essentially adware to users that were completely unaware of the situation.
That's no evidence at all. This was a new process and things were not all sussed out properly. There are plenty of people including directors (which I am not) who had discussions in the privates channels which you are not privy to. Using lies to prove your point wont get you anywhere in the long run.
See said evidence here with timestamps --> viewtopic.php?p=27801#p27801
[/quote]

Stop cherrypicking. I don't have the time or inclination to produce "evidences", but you are wrong. I am out of this conversation, I wanted people to realise what you saying is not true. I have no interest or time talking to you.
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores

Unread post by aberu »

suverman wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:44 pm Stop cherrypicking. I don't have the time or inclination to produce "evidences", but you are wrong. I am out of this conversation, I wanted people to realise what you saying is not true. I have no interest or time talking to you.
People can make up their own minds, I provided evidence with timestamps, you provided conjecture. Whatever.

To be clear, if I'm wrong I gladly welcome evidence to the contrary and have zero problem with admitting I'm wrong. You do whatever you want to do. I was justifying my position because I believe things based on the evidence that I can see. I'm not going to just refrain from defending myself from accusations of me lying or something, when I'm not. It's not lying if the evidence I have seen shows what I believe to be true. If there is more evidence that shows what I believe is not true, then I will change my mind.
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores

Unread post by lamarax »

Don't sweat it birdybro, everyone here knows what's up.
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores

Unread post by badvision »

Meanwhile I can't wait to see if the recent Moto 68k bugfixes might benefit other non-JT cores. Time will tell. All I can say is it's really exciting to see you devs rock this party like a hurricane. ;) Send me updates over 110-baaud smoke signals, I have no rights to complain either way. :D :D :D
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores

Unread post by atrac17 »

lamarax wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 6:59 pm Don't sweat it birdybro, everyone here knows what's up.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣...

I'm sure you all do. There aren't directors that have input. It's birdybro, birdybro alone.

It wasn't something that kintrix came to me about.

It was all you guys who "know" what's up.
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores

Unread post by atrac17 »

aberu wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:17 pm
atrac17 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:20 am
aberu wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:08 pm So DRM has come to MiSTer? Kinda ironic. :P

Like it's a good thing to make it a little easier on patrons, it's a little over the top to call it ingenious imo, since having keys to use software has been around since the earliest days of software :P
It is, it made life so much easier. I didn't see 1k+ people who can't copy files to a directory complaining. Nor complaining that there ROM files were not fetched. Again, this isn't the official MiSTer_Updater script. DRM or not, it's not a big deal. Also, I'm the voice that suggested it be set to off. Not you. Stop acting like you're the hero birdybro.

Also, it's a box you play illegal roms on. Let's talk about laws and licensing everybody. JFC.
You aren't "the voice", and neither was I. There were loads of people on twitter responding to Jotego in JTFPGA patrons channel, on the MiSTer FPGA discord, on twitter, etc... Well before you said anything publicly and well before Jotego said he was going to ask theypsilon to have it changed from opt-out to opt-in. I stated that I and lots of other people pushed back, I didn't say that I was some hero.

I don't disagree that it has made life easier, I literally said the same thing in the post you quoted. There are other posts, tweest, and chat messages of mine you obviously have ignored where I defend the decision from that perspective because it's an unnecessary load of tickets. My main problem with it was that it was originally opt-out. I still don't like the aesthetics of what looks like early 2000's shareware overlays on the MiSTer that promote people to pay into his patreon for access to the software. Paying for emulators, despite it being something I already effectively do in some way with a long list of core devs I support, is still something I feel weird about.

You also didn't respond to my main point where I pointed out that it's a bit of an exaggeration to call key license files "ingenious" in 2021. If you are offended, it's only because I had a sensible reaction to your dramaticization of a fairly mundane detail of a good solution to a real problem.

I also don't think I've talked about licensing or laws in any strong way on this at all. Jotego also said he would remove the GPL from all his work over time to address these concerns, and that's awesome, yet another win in the marketplace of ideas where a developer listens to feedback from their users. I'm glad Jotego has a more mature public attitude than you do toward feedback.

tldr; I've been consistent. It aesthetically rubs me the wrong way, I think it makes sense, opt-out was bad, people pushed back en masse, changing it to opt-in was awesome and I'm glad all of our feedback (including yours) was listened to. Revisionism of the timeline of events is unnecessary because a developer listening to their users' feedback is a GOOD thing. IDGAF about laws and licensing honestly.
suverman wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:39 am
aberu wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:07 pm

But to those of us who were paying attention and providing this feedback, the evidence is clear as day that the original plan was to automatically start pushing out what is essentially adware to users that were completely unaware of the situation.
That's no evidence at all. This was a new process and things were not all sussed out properly. There are plenty of people including directors (which I am not) who had discussions in the privates channels which you are not privy to. Using lies to prove your point wont get you anywhere in the long run.
See said evidence here with timestamps --> viewtopic.php?p=27801#p27801
Bro, I can't post private group chats or DM's between me and kitrinx. This was something that was decided by the directors with the solution provided.

Honestly, it was pointless to even bring it up. I'll go back to the real world while everybody else here that doesn't know what's going on lives in fantasy... It's cool....
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores

Unread post by suverman »

aberu wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 3:00 pm
suverman wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:44 pm Stop cherrypicking. I don't have the time or inclination to produce "evidences", but you are wrong. I am out of this conversation, I wanted people to realise what you saying is not true. I have no interest or time talking to you.
People can make up their own minds, I provided evidence with timestamps, you provided conjecture. Whatever.

To be clear, if I'm wrong I gladly welcome evidence to the contrary and have zero problem with admitting I'm wrong. You do whatever you want to do. I was justifying my position because I believe things based on the evidence that I can see. I'm not going to just refrain from defending myself from accusations of me lying or something, when I'm not. It's not lying if the evidence I have seen shows what I believe to be true. If there is more evidence that shows what I believe is not true, then I will change my mind.
You will not bait me to share "evidence" what goes on in DMs and closed channels. Stop.
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores

Unread post by FatSlob71 »

Shut Up Aberu your constant attacks on people are wearing thin!
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores

Unread post by aberu »

FatSlob71 wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:58 am Shut Up Aberu your constant attacks on people are wearing thin!
Not sure why you are accusing me of attacking people. They are the ones calling me names, talking trash, being aggressive, I've just provided evidence, and provided my opinion on the aesthetics of having a demo core with a big banner advertising to go to patreon and give money to unlock it. You on the other hand, seem to be making highly misleading negative comments against Jotego and his project...

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=2757&p=27992#p27992
FatSlob71 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:14 am They want to make you wait another 3 months
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=2683&p=27524#p27524
FatSlob71 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:18 pm He too Busy with System 16 core now so will take 3 months more most likely!
Both of these things are basically conspiracy theories, so I think you should take your own advice, personally.
atrac17 wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:20 pm
lamarax wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 6:59 pm Don't sweat it birdybro, everyone here knows what's up.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣...

I'm sure you all do. There aren't directors that have input. It's birdybro, birdybro alone.

It wasn't something that kintrix came to me about.

It was all you guys who "know" what's up.
I never claimed that it was me alone, I never claimed you and Kitrinx didn't bring it up prior to anyone else. I don't know why you care that much about being "the first person" or whatever. Such a bizarre ego. You can have it. All hail king Atrac17, first person to privately come up with a mundane common sense proposal to change it so that people have to opt-in to receive the beta adware cores.

The new official story is that Jotego ignored all of the public feedback on the opt-in by default in the script, and he only listened to you. Got it. Such is the decree of King Atrac17, author of JTFPGA history.
suverman wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:44 pm You will not bait me to share "evidence" what goes on in DMs and closed channels. Stop.
No, I'm not baiting you. I'm describing to you how knowledge works because people started calling me a liar and trashing on me. I have a justified true belief that is based on evidence, that Jotego did the right thing and listened to feedback and said he would tell the dev of the script to change it so you would need to opt-in to receive the beta core instead of needing to opt-out of it to not receive the core.

My opinion is not trashing on Jotego or attacking any of you people that seem to be quick to jump to the defense of Jotego in this misguided angry way. My opinion is he did the right thing, he does an amazing job on the cores he works on and continues to improve, and I still find the big ad overlay in a beta core on the MiSTer to be kinda aesthetically displeasing.

Stop putting me in some black and white "this is our enemy" camp or something. It's embarrassing.
atrac17 wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:26 pm Bro, I can't post private group chats or DM's between me and kitrinx. This was something that was decided by the directors with the solution provided.

Honestly, it was pointless to even bring it up. I'll go back to the real world while everybody else here that doesn't know what's going on lives in fantasy... It's cool....
I'm not asking you to post that. I'm asking you all to stop calling me a liar and trashing on me for having observed things with my own two eyes, justified my position by providing evidence for what I saw with my own two eyes, and having an opinion of Jotego that is very favorable because of how he handled the feedback. I don't get why you are so offended.
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores

Unread post by lamarax »

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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores

Unread post by FoxbatStargazer »

I would just like the arcade organizer to categorize the jotega beta cores and especially the patreon cores. Keep them out of the main list for now. Just a CPS2 folder alone would be a big help.
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores

Unread post by zakk4223 »

I have a Capcom - CPS2 folder created by arcade organizer with all the CPS2 mras in it?
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores

Unread post by akeley »

Is there a list of the currently "locked" cores somewhere? I don't mind sorting them manually.
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores

Unread post by Hodor »

akeley wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:53 pm Is there a list of the currently "locked" cores somewhere? I don't mind sorting them manually.
Only System 16A/16B at the moment.
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores

Unread post by Spark_Tek »

Is there any way to just opt into the Open Beta stuff, but not the Closed Betas?

I don't want to start a game and find out it's locked only when it has loaded. It's frustrating.
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores

Unread post by zakk4223 »

Spark_Tek wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:04 am Is there any way to just opt into the Open Beta stuff, but not the Closed Betas?

I don't want to start a game and find out it's locked only when it has loaded. It's frustrating.
Nope. He rearranged his releases so that jtbin contains both open and closed betas, and 'jtstable' contains public cores but at a slower cadence than 'jtbin'.

Previously everyone just pulled from jtbin, but now the default is jtstable. Everyone WANTS the open beta cores though, so I bet a large percentage of people opt into it, and experience the issue you are having.

When it was initially said things were being made opt-in, I fully expected a 'jtpatreon' repo to show up that people could opt into. But that's not what we got. Oh well.
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores

Unread post by Spark_Tek »

zakk4223 wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:29 am
Spark_Tek wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:04 am Is there any way to just opt into the Open Beta stuff, but not the Closed Betas?

I don't want to start a game and find out it's locked only when it has loaded. It's frustrating.
Nope. He rearranged his releases so that jtbin contains both open and closed betas, and 'jtstable' contains public cores but at a slower cadence than 'jtbin'.

Previously everyone just pulled from jtbin, but now the default is jtstable. Everyone WANTS the open beta cores though, so I bet a large percentage of people opt into it, and experience the issue you are having.

When it was initially said things were being made opt-in, I fully expected a 'jtpatreon' repo to show up that people could opt into. But that's not what we got. Oh well.
I understand Jotego's need for support, but this implementation is not a good user experience. It's rather off-putting that they're using bundling like a cable company does.

So alright, how do I un-pollute my SD card then? Do I have to reinstall everything?
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores

Unread post by bazza_12 »

just delete the jts16.rfb and jts16a2.rbf files from the arcade/core
then Action Fighter (World, S16A) [FD1089A 317-0018].mra
Alex Kidd The Lost Stars (Set 2, World, S16A) [No Protection].mra
Body Slam (World, S16) [8751 317-0015].mra
Fantasy Zone (Rev A, World, S16A) [No Protection].mra
Shinobi (Set 6, World, S16A) [No Protection].mra from the arcade folder.

once you've done that.. if you want to, delete the organizer folder and re-run the organizer script. it will re-create the organizer folder without those mra's
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores

Unread post by Spark_Tek »

Appreciate it. I realize it shouldn't bother me so much, but of course it had to show up while I had company over. It was their favorite game and it was awkward.

I appreciate Jotego and their work, just wish the preview status was more visible to avoid frustration/embarrassment.
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores

Unread post by pgimeno »

Let me see if I understand the situation.

Jotego is taking GPL2-licensed code, linking it with his own code, and distributing the resulting binaries without providing the full source.

Is that assessment correct?
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores

Unread post by Gryzor »

Spark_Tek wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:18 am
zakk4223 wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:29 am
Spark_Tek wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:04 am Is there any way to just opt into the Open Beta stuff, but not the Closed Betas?

I don't want to start a game and find out it's locked only when it has loaded. It's frustrating.
Nope. He rearranged his releases so that jtbin contains both open and closed betas, and 'jtstable' contains public cores but at a slower cadence than 'jtbin'.

Previously everyone just pulled from jtbin, but now the default is jtstable. Everyone WANTS the open beta cores though, so I bet a large percentage of people opt into it, and experience the issue you are having.

When it was initially said things were being made opt-in, I fully expected a 'jtpatreon' repo to show up that people could opt into. But that's not what we got. Oh well.
I understand Jotego's need for support, but this implementation is not a good user experience. It's rather off-putting that they're using bundling like a cable company does.

So alright, how do I un-pollute my SD card then? Do I have to reinstall everything?

So Jose (and Alexey, Sergey and so many others) is pretty much god's gift to retrogaming, but you liken his beta versions to pollution...? C'mon, you're better than that.

Just tell your friends that you don't support the work that's being done and they'll understand why you can't show off the full potential of your MiSTer yet. There's nothing awkward about it whatsoever.
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores

Unread post by aberu »

pgimeno wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:50 pm Let me see if I understand the situation.

Jotego is taking GPL2-licensed code, linking it with his own code, and distributing the resulting binaries without providing the full source.

Is that assessment correct?
He uses his own framework --> https://github.com/jotego/jtframe - and it's open sourced completely. So that assessment is not correct.

EDIT: And yes he has some stuff modified in his framework from Sorgelig's and others' code (as does the MiSTer project from MiST before it), but this is irrelevant since the framework is open source.
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores

Unread post by bazza_12 »

it's not a question of pollution (badly chosen word) it's a beta version which isn't fully available unless you're a patreon of JT.. (which is fair enough) however, if you aren't a patreon these unplayable mra's/zips and rbf files take up room on your sdcard and appear in games lists. no one is devaluing the incredible work JT, Sorg and others are doing.
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores

Unread post by robinsonb5 »

aberu wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:56 pmbut this is irrelevant since the framework is open source.
That's not strictly true. If you distribute a binary which contains or links with GPLed code (and you don't have some other license to that code - either by negotiating with its original authors, or by having written it entirely yourself and thus being free to relicense it however you wish) - then you're duty bound to make the corresponding source available to anyone who wants it. ("The “Corresponding Source” for a work in object code form means all the source code needed to generate, install, and (for an executable work) run the object code and to modify the work, including scripts to control those activities." -- GPL 3.0)

The "beta test" argument that's sometimes put forward doesn't hold a lot of water, and it's clearly circumventing the intent of the GPL even if the argument itself were ever found to be valid. (I don't *think* that argument's been tested in court as yet?)
Nonetheless, Jotego does do amazing work, and is clearly acting in good faith, with an established history of releasing source once he's happy with the cores - so there's little to be gained by making waves about it.

And let's face it, the only way to enforce the GPL is legal action. I can't imagine any of the authors of the GPLed code in question caring enough to take it that far!
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Re: New distribution system for Jotego cores

Unread post by aberu »

robinsonb5 wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:38 pm
aberu wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:56 pmbut this is irrelevant since the framework is open source.
That's not strictly true. If you distribute a binary which contains or links with GPLed code (and you don't have some other license to that code - either by negotiating with its original authors, or by having written it entirely yourself and thus being free to relicense it however you wish) - then you're duty bound to make the corresponding source available to anyone who wants it. ("The “Corresponding Source” for a work in object code form means all the source code needed to generate, install, and (for an executable work) run the object code and to modify the work, including scripts to control those activities." -- GPL 3.0)

The "beta test" argument that's sometimes put forward doesn't hold a lot of water, and it's clearly circumventing the intent of the GPL even if the argument itself were ever found to be valid. (I don't *think* that argument's been tested in court as yet?)
Nonetheless, Jotego does do amazing work, and is clearly acting in good faith, with an established history of releasing source once he's happy with the cores - so there's little to be gained by making waves about it.

And let's face it, the only way to enforce the GPL is legal action. I can't imagine any of the authors of the GPLed code in question caring enough to take it that far!
All good points. Almost all beta cores with patreons are this way however, so your last sentence is spot on! :lol:
birdybro~
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