New Feature For Neo Geo Core

Xbytez
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New Feature For Neo Geo Core

Unread post by Xbytez »

For all the Arcade fans, it looks like MRA support for the Neo Geo core is being worked on :D

ChloeIsFab
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Re: New Feature For Neo Geo Core

Unread post by ChloeIsFab »

Hoping it is an overclock feature to help eliminate some of the terrible slowdown in a lot of neo-geo games. Turns the games from amazing to perfect :)
FPGA64
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Re: New Feature For Neo Geo Core

Unread post by FPGA64 »

The slowdown is how the real system is.
MostroW
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Re: New Feature For Neo Geo Core

Unread post by MostroW »

ChloeIsFab wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:38 pm Hoping it is an overclock feature to help eliminate some of the terrible slowdown in a lot of neo-geo games. Turns the games from amazing to perfect :)
Slowdowns were part of that era, overclocking could potentially screw up the game mechanics
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Re: New Feature For Neo Geo Core

Unread post by pbsk8 »

it means we can get all neogeo games from update all script like the other arcade games?
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Re: New Feature For Neo Geo Core

Unread post by CeeDeeVee »

The attitude seen so often on so many retro forums (granted the MiSTer forum usually has less of it) sucks shit, honestly just makes me sad. At the end of the day, hardware recreation (via FPGA in this case) is usually all about accuracy and conservationism (sadly needed due to originally manufactured device failure with continued use, and increased rarity), as well as research and education. You are not wrong for wanting an overclocked version if you're not interested in these values, but it doesn't make those that do, dumb or the pursuit to be silly. If you want modern performance over actual recreations, my suggestion (and it is JUST A SUGGESTION) is that you may be better served by software emulation, running on a modern platform. Having said that, the MiSTer platform is open source and free for anyone to learn and implement their own feature and I can strongly recommend this for improving your life and making you a well rounded human. Peace X
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jorge_
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Re: New Feature For Neo Geo Core

Unread post by jorge_ »

Back on topic, what advantages would MRA bring to Neo Geo?
akeley
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Re: New Feature For Neo Geo Core

Unread post by akeley »

As for the turbo option, I don't mind the idea it at all myself, but I also sort of don't understand the point of it in this case. The slowdowns in arcade games only occur occasionally, and unless you have an AI analyzer which would apply the turbo at these very moments, you are going to end up with an entire game being speeded up. How could that be any fun is something that I struggle to understand.

(also, regarding Metal Slug, it's only the 2nd one which had real slowdown issues. They were fixed in Metal Slug X).
MostroW
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Re: New Feature For Neo Geo Core

Unread post by MostroW »

For that matter, i don't know how it things are done on Neo Geo, but i can remember some SNES games getting the SA-1 coprocessor treatment to remove the slowdown on the parts where things got heated up?

Could such a feat be made on the Neo Geo side as well, if i'm not mistaken there was Krautbuster that used a fpga for certain features on that cartridge? (encryption and some other stuff?)
akeley
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Re: New Feature For Neo Geo Core

Unread post by akeley »

I see. I guess it's possible then, though for me in arcade games it'd be off limits because I like to keep the original gameplay balance and challenge (and in some games the difficulty was actually tailored to the slowdowns by the devs themselves).

Still, I don't mind this as a request - when it's voiced in a civilized fashion, that is.
FPGA64
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Re: New Feature For Neo Geo Core

Unread post by FPGA64 »

Its all a bit starnge anyway. Someone read New feature for Neo Geo without reading that it was MRA support and then decided to add a random feature request they wanted.
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Re: New Feature For Neo Geo Core

Unread post by ChloeIsFab »

FPGA64 wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:47 pm The slowdown is how the real system is.
I appreciate that I am old enough to have been there at the time. I think what is been missed is that some people aren't concerned with the emulation been oscilloscope accurate, my love is for the games and the games only. The slowdown was a consequence of hardware limitations, not design. I am sure if the developers were able to remove the slowdown they would have.
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Re: New Feature For Neo Geo Core

Unread post by ChloeIsFab »

MostroW wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 6:21 pm
ChloeIsFab wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:38 pm Hoping it is an overclock feature to help eliminate some of the terrible slowdown in a lot of neo-geo games. Turns the games from amazing to perfect :)
Slowdowns were part of that era, overclocking could potentially screw up the game mechanics
Surely it is not to hard to add it as an optional dip switch per game setting. Mame have had the overclock ability for decades with no ill-effects. An yes I am aware of fpga/software emulation differences.
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Re: New Feature For Neo Geo Core

Unread post by FPGA64 »

ChloeIsFab wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:26 pm
FPGA64 wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:47 pm The slowdown is how the real system is.
I appreciate that I am old enough to have been there at the time. I think what is been missed is that some people aren't concerned with the emulation been oscilloscope accurate, my love is for the games and the games only. The slowdown was a consequence of hardware limitations, not design. I am sure if the developers were able to remove the slowdown they would have.
While I appreciate that the whole point of Mister is that its as accurate as it can possibly be. Its an expensive option to choose if that doesnt concern you.

I had a Neo Geo back in the day and the slowdown was just part of the game and accepted.

viewtopic.php?t=1580 is someone offering a "Turbo" version but its probbaly not up to date with any recent changes
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darksakul
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Re: New Feature For Neo Geo Core

Unread post by darksakul »

Quite often the Slow down isn't an issue with the hardware, but with poorly written code in the game.
Rom hacks on Metal Slug shows the game can run at full speed without overclocking.
It is my great regret that we live in an age that is proud of machines that think and suspicious of people who try to.
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lamarax
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Re: New Feature For Neo Geo Core

Unread post by lamarax »

I think it's a question which parallels the whole console 'ROMhacks' and HB MAME scene. Are you downloading HB .mras? Do you mind doing so? Do you play them and enjoy doing so? Preservation is fine, as long as it doesn't end up in 'mummification' :)
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Re: New Feature For Neo Geo Core

Unread post by pgimeno »

akeley wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:08 pm As for the turbo option, I don't mind the idea it at all myself, but I also sort of don't understand the point of it in this case. The slowdowns in arcade games only occur occasionally, and unless you have an AI analyzer which would apply the turbo at these very moments, you are going to end up with an entire game being speeded up. How could that be any fun is something that I struggle to understand.
Almost every action game for almost every platform basically works like this. The CPU processes one frame based on user inputs, prepares the next frame, then waits for a vertical sync from the display system. If the CPU takes more than one frame time to process one frame, then it will miss a vertical sync and will sync on the next. That's where slowdowns become visible; things that should run at 60 FPS actually run at 30 FPS until the CPU can process them in less than one frame time again.

If the CPU is faster, it can process the next frame within one frame time and not miss the vertical sync. You don't need to apply the speedup at the very time the slowdown comes; you just apply it continuously so that the CPU has time to spare every frame before the vertical sync comes.

See for example this thread about the turbo mode in the GBA core and the OP wondering if it did anything: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=2291
MostroW
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Re: New Feature For Neo Geo Core

Unread post by MostroW »

wasn't there a post before were somebody added that switch?

then for as far as i know, it should be comparable and be able to add to the newer builds?
HornheaDD
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Re: New Feature For Neo Geo Core

Unread post by HornheaDD »

jorge_ wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:44 am
Atohmdiy wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:23 pm Dumb answer from both of you.
Back on topic, what advantages would MRA bring to Neo Geo?
New here (hi) - for ME, I'd say the advantage would be to have it work properly in a cab. I've got my MiSTer attached to one of InvZim's JAMMA expanders and its great. But for some reason I dont understand (at this point) console games' controls don't work in my cab. Which is weird because they did before.. Since the Neo is a 'console' to the MiSTer, I can't play Neo games on it at this point. If the core was changed to an Arcade 'board', then my controls would work perfect.

Ive got a Neo cab as well but it would be nice to have the Neo on my Blast.
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Re: New Feature For Neo Geo Core

Unread post by ChloeIsFab »

FPGA64 wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:42 pm
ChloeIsFab wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:26 pm
FPGA64 wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:47 pm The slowdown is how the real system is.
I appreciate that I am old enough to have been there at the time. I think what is been missed is that some people aren't concerned with the emulation been oscilloscope accurate, my love is for the games and the games only. The slowdown was a consequence of hardware limitations, not design. I am sure if the developers were able to remove the slowdown they would have.
While I appreciate that the whole point of Mister is that its as accurate as it can possibly be. Its an expensive option to choose if that doesnt concern you.

I had a Neo Geo back in the day and the slowdown was just part of the game and accepted.

viewtopic.php?t=1580 is someone offering a "Turbo" version but its probbaly not up to date with any recent changes
If you want accuracy then get the real hardware. You see how this argument eats itself and is pointless. We are all a community and everyone has hopes wishes and just because you are a purist it is not fair to speak for everyone like you do. There is precedent in my retro-gaming communities for taking what was and improving it to make the games run better. The SA-1 snes mods, translations mods for all systems, hdmi and ode mods for real hardware. You could also overclock original consoles with simple soldering, so again I think your argument is mute just because it suits you personally. We should perhaps look to mame as the inspiration since much of this is standing on the shoulders of giants. If we are to continue to grow and attract new people then it should attempt to appeal to as many people as possible. Just dismissing them is not the way.
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pgimeno
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Re: New Feature For Neo Geo Core

Unread post by pgimeno »

So if I understand correctly, the MRA support is for direct access to the game without having to choose the ROM from the folder; either from the menu or at boot time. Is that it?
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Re: New Feature For Neo Geo Core

Unread post by jca »

This subject is stale and comes back every so often with the same results: mud slinging.
Give it a rest, so far no developer has been interested, if you want it learn FPGA programming and do it yourself.
This also not the topic of this thread which is the introduction of mras to this core.
I wonder what is the goal of mra for NeoGeo. Is it to be consistent with the arcade cores? Will the core start in Arcade mode if it had been setup to start inn Console mode.
If this is the only reason I don't see the point of spending time doing it, there are other things more interesting to develop.
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Re: New Feature For Neo Geo Core

Unread post by jorge_ »

Anyway, MiSTer is FULL of cores that change the original hardware. C64 has a turbo mode, Amiga has multiple CPU choices, NES can remove the sprite limit of the original hardware, etc.

Know what all these things have in common? They are optional and the most faithful behavior is always the default. People are so weird.
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Re: New Feature For Neo Geo Core

Unread post by dshadoff »

Well, if Furrtek wants to develop MRAs instead of NGCD or oveclocked CPUs, that's up to him. If he's not interested in those other features, it will fall to somebody else interested enough in the feature to develop it for FPGA. As I have said countless times before, most of the developers for MiSTer did not know FPGA programming before coming to the MiSTer project, and learned by implementing a feature (or bugfix) they really wanted.
Xbytez
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Re: New Feature For Neo Geo Core

Unread post by Xbytez »

I have cleaned up this thread, and edited some posts.

Even though the thread moved 'off topic' it was originally intended to be about the future prospect of MRA support for the Neo Geo core.

Sadly this thread devolved into personal attacks and aggression towards other forum users. Discussion for and against in relation to a suggested feature request for a core are fine, but please keep it civil.

Please be respectful of each other and each other's opinions.

Thanks.
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Re: New Feature For Neo Geo Core

Unread post by jca »

dshadoff wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:00 am Well, if Furrtek wants to develop MRAs instead of NGCD or oveclocked CPUs, that's up to him....
Could be Blackwine :D
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Re: New Feature For Neo Geo Core

Unread post by dshadoff »

jca wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:07 am
dshadoff wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:00 am Well, if Furrtek wants to develop MRAs instead of NGCD or oveclocked CPUs, that's up to him....
Could be Blackwine :D
Oh... I just re-read the Tweet and I hadn't noticed that earlier. Yes, it could be Blackwine.
Still, the message is the same; somebody interested in a feature needs to implement it.
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Re: New Feature For Neo Geo Core

Unread post by Moondandy »

Another perk is for people with a tty2oled screen images can be made for each game. The lads are already at work on this, but we will need a list of the .mra file names.
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Re: New Feature For Neo Geo Core

Unread post by LamerDeluxe »

Would this allow for setting different 5x cropping vertical offsets per game?
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