New MiSTer hardware board
Re: New MiSTer hardware board
Hi MikeJ ! It makes me very happy to read you here, I discovered fpgarcade.com in 2007 when I was working on some spartan3E for video processing product development, and have been a huge fan of your work ever since
I get some interesting feedback from Exor. I have seen the modules from Terasic but have not yet contacted them.
With a little luck we will be able to lower the displayed prices a little.
I get some interesting feedback from Exor. I have seen the modules from Terasic but have not yet contacted them.
With a little luck we will be able to lower the displayed prices a little.
Retrogaming, arcade and pinball machines fan. Current project : Open Source Hardware ITX motherboard new design to host MiSTer FPGA cores. Wan't to support me ? https://www.patreon.com/nlemoult
Re: New MiSTer hardware board
Ah thanks! Your biggest problem will be any changes to the pinout etc will mean forking all the cores. I might be able to target your board with a new backend for my framework depending what memory choices you make. Send me an email.
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Re: New MiSTer hardware board
reducing DDR3 amount will affect some cores. MiSTer starts to use more and more DDR3 as project evolutions. Less than 1GB of DDR3 will seriously limit current MiSTer potential.
Bandwidth of DDR3 is also very important. It must be at least 32bit. 16bit won't be enough.
There was similar to DE10-nano board from NovTech where you can see how FPGA board should NOT be designed. They simply ruined the whole idea (and sold recently remaining for $30 per board) . Basically same FPGA chip where one board takes everything possible with highest possible performance while another is utter trash.
Bandwidth of DDR3 is also very important. It must be at least 32bit. 16bit won't be enough.
There was similar to DE10-nano board from NovTech where you can see how FPGA board should NOT be designed. They simply ruined the whole idea (and sold recently remaining for $30 per board) . Basically same FPGA chip where one board takes everything possible with highest possible performance while another is utter trash.
Re: New MiSTer hardware board
The Exor module has 1GB of DDR3 in 32bit, so I will stay on it for the moment. I will try to not design this board like NovTech did !!
As I would like to be compatible with current cores, I would take any advice on the elements that are the most critical and that should not be changed
As I would like to be compatible with current cores, I would take any advice on the elements that are the most critical and that should not be changed
Retrogaming, arcade and pinball machines fan. Current project : Open Source Hardware ITX motherboard new design to host MiSTer FPGA cores. Wan't to support me ? https://www.patreon.com/nlemoult
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Re: New MiSTer hardware board
SOM you want to use definitely has its own pin configuration and you won't be able to convince the manufacturer to change it to de10-nano pin config. It means cores won't be able to work without special compilation anyway.
Hard to tell what is critical unless you try to port the cores to a new board.
Hard to tell what is critical unless you try to port the cores to a new board.
Re: New MiSTer hardware board
Ok it looks like I need to try the us02 module before going any further.
I will receive a us02 dev kit next week, it's the start of a great adventure
Retrogaming, arcade and pinball machines fan. Current project : Open Source Hardware ITX motherboard new design to host MiSTer FPGA cores. Wan't to support me ? https://www.patreon.com/nlemoult
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Re: New MiSTer hardware board
I thought the DE-10 nano was essentially subsidized making it cost far less than it should.
Making different add on boards seem more logical than trying to make some all in one board that will end up
costing a lot more than a standard MiSTer for little to no advantage.
Making different add on boards seem more logical than trying to make some all in one board that will end up
costing a lot more than a standard MiSTer for little to no advantage.
Re: New MiSTer hardware board
A full MiSTer setup is well over $300 once you get everything you need, and price and capability aren't everything, there is also form factor to consider. The biggest problem with using a DE10 platform is the straight jacket it puts you in for case options and i/o placement. There are clever ways to get around this, but a true MiSTer-compatible board in a more consumer-friendly format would be welcome by many people.WolfgangBlack wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:35 pm I thought the DE-10 nano was essentially subsidized making it cost far less than it should.
Making different add on boards seem more logical than trying to make some all in one board that will end up
costing a lot more than a standard MiSTer for little to no advantage.
Certainly no need to discourage somebody from trying!
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Re: New MiSTer hardware board
This is very subjective. You may spend even $1000 if you consider some expensive case, elite gamepad and other things. It doesn't change the fact you only need de10-nano + SDRAM as a bare bone to play all cores.
Custom board won't make it cheaper. And the way you expect it will be $600+
Re: New MiSTer hardware board
It wasn't a criticism. I was just pointing out that many (most?) people spend nearly $400 to get the DE10, I/O board, SDRAM, USB hub, case, and wifi and bluetooth dongles, so an all-in-one solution doesn't have to be *that* inexpensive to compete. MiSTer is worth every penny, and it's one of my favorite possessions.Sorgelig wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:25 am This is very subjective. You may spend even $1000 if you consider some expensive case, elite gamepad and other things. It doesn't change the fact you only need de10-nano + SDRAM as a bare bone to play all cores.
Custom board won't make it cheaper. And the way you expect it will be $600+
I agree that the FPGA size we need is not quite cheap enough yet, but eventually I would love to see a layout with all of the above functionality built in, and USB port up front where they belong
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Re: New MiSTer hardware board
The key point is that you DON'T have to spend that much. Less than $200 is enough to start to play with MiSTer. And then later as you will get better picture how you want to use it, you can add more money to the MiSTer. Also it's DIY project so you can choose to make addon boards yourself and it will be way cheaper. If you choose DIY path then DE10-nano with ALL addon boards will be much cheaper than $200.
Entry price $600+ is complete different class and area. While some people are ready to spend that much from start, it's not a good price to popularize the project. And we are talking just about the board itself. Some fancy plastic case will add much more on the top.
If you go to electronic hobby, then today it's much more boring than in 80x-90x. Everything is inside big chips which hard to solder by a newbie. And it's more complicated when it comes to BGA chips. So it's not like before when you will need just bare soldering iron. You have to have a lot of expensive equipment and big budget. And it's more predefined now as chips are pretty much define the functionality.
I wanted to make MiSTer as a fusion of new and old technologies where you can do something yourself and be rewarded by result.
Entry price $600+ is complete different class and area. While some people are ready to spend that much from start, it's not a good price to popularize the project. And we are talking just about the board itself. Some fancy plastic case will add much more on the top.
If you go to electronic hobby, then today it's much more boring than in 80x-90x. Everything is inside big chips which hard to solder by a newbie. And it's more complicated when it comes to BGA chips. So it's not like before when you will need just bare soldering iron. You have to have a lot of expensive equipment and big budget. And it's more predefined now as chips are pretty much define the functionality.
I wanted to make MiSTer as a fusion of new and old technologies where you can do something yourself and be rewarded by result.
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Re: New MiSTer hardware board
By all means, if you have the interest do it up.
After all, that is how we got MiSTer.
Just wanted to make sure you know a DE-10 is sold for less than they should cost.
That's how I did mine and printed a case. I did eventually buy the 7 USB port board and printed the bottom to make it work.The key point is that you DON'T have to spend that much. Less than $200 is enough to start to play with MiSTer. And then later as you will get better picture how you want to use it, you can add more money to the MiSTer. Also it's DIY project so you can choose to make addon boards yourself and it will be way cheaper. If you choose DIY path then DE10-nano with ALL addon boards will be much cheaper than $200.
Still using the 32mb memory I built and have a few more I can sell reasonably if anyone needs one.
It's a great project and you'd have to pry my MiSTer out of my cold, dead , hands!
Right now it is a Time Pilot '84 arcade machine!
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Re: New MiSTer hardware board
Is xilinx xc7z030 a good candidate or not? 800MHz cpu, 125K LEs... and the price is around 60$.
Re: New MiSTer hardware board
I just received the Exor SoM development kit !
I have a lot of work to do until the end of September but I can't wait to start looking at what we can do with it.
There is a lot of work to be done on this kit to run Mister's linux and a first fpga core, knowing that there is no HDMI or VGA output ... but hey it is only the beginning of the adventure
I have a lot of work to do until the end of September but I can't wait to start looking at what we can do with it.
There is a lot of work to be done on this kit to run Mister's linux and a first fpga core, knowing that there is no HDMI or VGA output ... but hey it is only the beginning of the adventure
Retrogaming, arcade and pinball machines fan. Current project : Open Source Hardware ITX motherboard new design to host MiSTer FPGA cores. Wan't to support me ? https://www.patreon.com/nlemoult
Re: New MiSTer hardware board
While the subsidized low cost of the DE-10 Nano makes everything else a non-starter as far as price goes, I think we should all consider the very real possibility that the DE-10 Nano might eventually be discontinued. I'd say it would make a lot of sense to explore alternative options (preferably an open design) before that happens.
Re: New MiSTer hardware board
Some fresh news! We have done a lot of testing and we are in the process of developing a hardware prototype in ITX format using KiCad. It's a long process and we are currently in the process of seeing if we can put a CycloneV directly on it. Using KiCad to route DDR3 and SDRAM will be an interesting challenge!
One of the problems encountered is being able to use an HDMI output because you have to be an HDMI adopter to be able to buy and use these components, and it costs between $ 5,000 and $ 10,000 per year... At first we will use a DVI output to stay on the legal side on the subject.
I will come back to the subject soon with more information, if you have any suggestions please do not hesitate!
One of the problems encountered is being able to use an HDMI output because you have to be an HDMI adopter to be able to buy and use these components, and it costs between $ 5,000 and $ 10,000 per year... At first we will use a DVI output to stay on the legal side on the subject.
I will come back to the subject soon with more information, if you have any suggestions please do not hesitate!
Retrogaming, arcade and pinball machines fan. Current project : Open Source Hardware ITX motherboard new design to host MiSTer FPGA cores. Wan't to support me ? https://www.patreon.com/nlemoult
Re: New MiSTer hardware board
It's a little crazy project, isn't it? However, having a Cyclone V card for Mister in mini-ITX format and open hardware, that seems to be a good idea. I've already started so why not go all the way now
Retrogaming, arcade and pinball machines fan. Current project : Open Source Hardware ITX motherboard new design to host MiSTer FPGA cores. Wan't to support me ? https://www.patreon.com/nlemoult
Re: New MiSTer hardware board
Thanks Duffygag!
I just created the major components and hooked up some signals to see what happens and for now it's going in the right direction. I'm going to create the Cyclone V now .... I'll share some progress soon !
My current question is whether I should focus on remaining 100% pin compatible with the DE10 Nano fpga core pinmux or on the contrary take advantage of this new design to give more flexibility ...
I just created the major components and hooked up some signals to see what happens and for now it's going in the right direction. I'm going to create the Cyclone V now .... I'll share some progress soon !
My current question is whether I should focus on remaining 100% pin compatible with the DE10 Nano fpga core pinmux or on the contrary take advantage of this new design to give more flexibility ...
Retrogaming, arcade and pinball machines fan. Current project : Open Source Hardware ITX motherboard new design to host MiSTer FPGA cores. Wan't to support me ? https://www.patreon.com/nlemoult
Re: New MiSTer hardware board
I will go on with Cyclone V directly instead of the Exor module. The first important and most difficult step after the creation of the FPGA component will be to do the DDR3 routing with KiCad. Now we will have to be patient, the next tens of hours may be concentrated on this part of the layout !!
Luckily the new features of kicad 6 are really promising. Just look how nice the ratsnets color feature is ! To be honest, I don't think that it will be doable with less than 8 pcb layer total. Evaluation board stakup is 12 layer thick in comparison.
Luckily the new features of kicad 6 are really promising. Just look how nice the ratsnets color feature is ! To be honest, I don't think that it will be doable with less than 8 pcb layer total. Evaluation board stakup is 12 layer thick in comparison.
Retrogaming, arcade and pinball machines fan. Current project : Open Source Hardware ITX motherboard new design to host MiSTer FPGA cores. Wan't to support me ? https://www.patreon.com/nlemoult
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Re: New MiSTer hardware board
I found some interesting replacement. My work will go on.noel wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:27 pm I will go on with Cyclone V directly instead of the Exor module. The first important and most difficult step after the creation of the FPGA component will be to do the DDR3 routing with KiCad. Now we will have to be patient, the next tens of hours may be concentrated on this part of the layout !!
Luckily the new features of kicad 6 are really promising. Just look how nice the ratsnets color feature is !
1613844700_1911_20022021_1122x569.png
To be honest, I don't think that it will be doable with less than 8 pcb layer total. Evaluation board stakup is 12 layer thick in comparison.
Re: New MiSTer hardware board
Impressive work ! I really like the way you done it I also choose to route on a 6 Layer stackup with 3 routing layers. Here is my stackup :
As I plan to release this design in open source hardware, feel free to contact me to help me designing my board. I prefer the mini ITX form factor and I will use KiCad as it doesn't make sense to release opensource hardware that only relies on software that no one could afford.
For my part, I don't have a solution for the price of the fpga. We'll see later once the board is ready. There is also the problem of the hdmi because you have to pay $ 6000 per year to be able to buy the components !!
I just finished to validate my 80 ohm diff / 40 ohm single calculation for outer and inner layers. Now i'm ready to route. As I plan to release this design in open source hardware, feel free to contact me to help me designing my board. I prefer the mini ITX form factor and I will use KiCad as it doesn't make sense to release opensource hardware that only relies on software that no one could afford.
For my part, I don't have a solution for the price of the fpga. We'll see later once the board is ready. There is also the problem of the hdmi because you have to pay $ 6000 per year to be able to buy the components !!
Retrogaming, arcade and pinball machines fan. Current project : Open Source Hardware ITX motherboard new design to host MiSTer FPGA cores. Wan't to support me ? https://www.patreon.com/nlemoult
Re: New MiSTer hardware board
DVI port instead of HDMi to save 6k$ per year is probably fine with most people that will buy this.
DVI to HDMI cables is cheap and easy to buy and the signals is the exact same (as far as i know anyway) DVI does not officially have sound but can be added.
The two small issues i see is.
1, It´s a bigger connector that will take up more pcb/case space, can be an issue but probably not.
2, The dvi end of the cable is bigger/longer/bulkier so people can think they are uglier, and they do take up a bit more space on the outside of the case.
You can probably find a supply for the HDMI stuff and a cheap Chinese factory to build them, but is it worth taking the chance?
Just look at the SD2SNES that got in trouble just because the name and had to change it.
DVI to HDMI cables is cheap and easy to buy and the signals is the exact same (as far as i know anyway) DVI does not officially have sound but can be added.
The two small issues i see is.
1, It´s a bigger connector that will take up more pcb/case space, can be an issue but probably not.
2, The dvi end of the cable is bigger/longer/bulkier so people can think they are uglier, and they do take up a bit more space on the outside of the case.
You can probably find a supply for the HDMI stuff and a cheap Chinese factory to build them, but is it worth taking the chance?
Just look at the SD2SNES that got in trouble just because the name and had to change it.
Re: New MiSTer hardware board
While DVI-D would be bigger than HDMI, DVI-I should be smaller than HDMI + VGA, at the cost of requiring (passive) adapters for both of those. DVI also doesn't carry CEC signals. While it would be cool to have CEC support, lacking it altogether would still be an improvement over DE10-Nano screwing it up.
There are a few vendors out there that have taken a similar approach to HDMI, i.e. putting an HDMI-compatible socket on their product and never actually advertising it as "HDMI".
This is, of course, not legal advice. I'm just describing a thing that I've seen some vendors do.
Yes, but as far as I know a name change was also all that happened, because it was presumably a trademark issue. It's not like it was redesigned to use USB drives instead of SD cards.
There are a few vendors out there that have taken a similar approach to HDMI, i.e. putting an HDMI-compatible socket on their product and never actually advertising it as "HDMI".
This is, of course, not legal advice. I'm just describing a thing that I've seen some vendors do.
Re: New MiSTer hardware board
You can't purchase hdmi transmitter components unless you're a HDMI adopter (See https://www.analog.com/en/products/adv7535.html)
I agree with you on the DVI-I. As shown on the architecture bloc diagram I propose, I plan to implement DVI-I as a first step (https://www.patreon.com/posts/motherboard-v-47744392). It will output the same signal than HDMI but it will not embed the audio signal.
Retrogaming, arcade and pinball machines fan. Current project : Open Source Hardware ITX motherboard new design to host MiSTer FPGA cores. Wan't to support me ? https://www.patreon.com/nlemoult
Re: New MiSTer hardware board
I guess that's a relatively new thing, because I'm sure I remember ADV7511/13 being normally stocked products at major distributors a few years ago. It looks like it might also be specific to Analog Devices products; NXP transmitters seem to still be available, and the datasheets only say that you need a license to use them "in equipment that complies with the HDMI standard". The main set of part numbers I see seems to be rated for only 150 MHz pixel clock rather than the 165 MHz rating of ADV7513 or TFP410, though.noel wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:00 pmYou can't purchase hdmi transmitter components unless you're a HDMI adopter (See https://www.analog.com/en/products/adv7535.html)
Re: New MiSTer hardware board
Analog devices and Silicon image devices are locked if you're not an HDMI adopter. I did not plan to use the NxP parts as they seems to be tagged as obsolete (https://www.arrow.com/fr-fr/products/td ... conductors). You can still buy the NxP components but I don't know for how long.
I added the TFP410 part in my current design as its not an HDMI transmitter but a DVI one. So there is no restriction to use it for now.
Retrogaming, arcade and pinball machines fan. Current project : Open Source Hardware ITX motherboard new design to host MiSTer FPGA cores. Wan't to support me ? https://www.patreon.com/nlemoult
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Re: New MiSTer hardware board
I'd love to have a design based on an FPGA device that can be programmed using open source tools. Apparently there isn't much open source software in that category, though.
Converters I've written: Floppy DIM/FDI/FDD/HDM to D88, D88 to XDF, Tape SVI 318/328 CAS to WAV
Re: New MiSTer hardware board
I don't think there is plenty of alternative to program the Cyclone V using open-source tools. It seems that if I replace the Cyclone V by Artix-7 fpga + external CPU, it would be possible to use the SymbiFlow open source toolchain. As the current PSX core development is based on Artix-7 fpga dev board, it seems that this target worth a look, but we are starting to move away seriously from the DE-10 Nano platform
Retrogaming, arcade and pinball machines fan. Current project : Open Source Hardware ITX motherboard new design to host MiSTer FPGA cores. Wan't to support me ? https://www.patreon.com/nlemoult