Composite Adapter for MiSTer

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Re: Composite Adapter for MiSTer

Unread post by aberu »

retrorepair wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:07 pm
As I said above, it can be fixed, but requires a special build of MiSTer as Sorg refuses to allow it to the main build. Again, it's not a fault of the design!
This doesn't address the fact that antonio knows that this happens, knows that people don't expect it to happen, knows it looks different than original hardware, advertises that his adapter will output just like original hardware on his page, and then proceeds to try and sell us another one after we ask him how to fix the problem. My main point is still... why doesn't he inform people of this up front since he's known about the problem for literally over a year now? Why does he still say his adapter outputs just like original hardware when it actually doesn't?
retrorepair wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:07 pm
Because your console and a lot of the consoles you have used have a built in work around to fix the issue, much the same as how Antonio now has.

I'll bet you all the tea in China though, you HAVE seen it before but never noticed it till now.

Hook up a DVD player, laserdisc player or VCR, high chance you'll see it. I'd bet Atari 2600 has it too, though I've not one here to test.
I don't think you know what I mean. It's like you load up a still image, like a menu in an RPG. It has white borders. Those white borders with his adapter basically have a rainbow moving over them. That rainbow moves faster or slower if you move the VGA jumper btw. My first thought was misconfiguration. I changed the jumper for the VGA on the analog i/o board, that just changed the speed of the rainbow somewhat. I tried different CRTs, luggin them around. I tried different composite cables just in case. I tried to isolate for EMI reasons. I even pulled out a power conditioner I have and used that to rule out the power being too dirty to my CRTs. Same thing. I then pulled out my JVC X'Eye and compared same games (Genesis Shining Force 2 and Phantasy Star IV for the Genesis core from my collection, and Shining Force CD on Sega CD). Everything was as expected, the color artifacts don't move from what I can tell at all.

On the MiSTer cores the same color artifacts happened in the SNES core, the TGFX16 core, the Genesis core, Sega CD core. Do you have other ones you want me to test tonight? Any advice on how I can take a video of the issue to reliably convey what it is? I've tried to but it always comes up looking bad since recording CRTs is tough. Thanks.

As for question 2, again, why do you think he lied about me and said I'm a competitor? Just a thought.

EDIT: Whatever, last thing I'm saying here:

I am not attacking antoniovillena's work as a whole. Antonio certainly makes some great products. This is about the composite adapter (which is a fine s-video adapter btw) debacle. I'm frustrated by his repeated response to this for quite some time being wholly inadequate. My advice to antonio is; Don't sell things to people with false pretenses, don't lie about anyone who criticizes your work, and don't throw Sorgelig under the bus unnecessarily as a shield for criticism, when Sorgelig was a huge part of creating the opportunity for you to make money off of the MiSTer project in the first place.

EDIT2: "Sorg refuses to allow it to the main build" <--- Please present evidence of the pull requests that were denied when you claim things like this.
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Re: Composite Adapter for MiSTer

Unread post by gordonfish »

Been reading through this thread, and while I understand the desire to have absolutely perfect-like-original output, it really feels to me like people really forget how inconsistent composite (as well as S-video and esepcially RF) could be.

I remember back in the 90s of doing an experiment with a couple of friends, who each brought their NES (USA front loaders, all the same model) that were each connected via composite one at a time, by quickly swapping the same RCA video cable between them. The point of the experiment was to see if they all ran at the same speed, to see if they all looked the same, and what, if any, differences there were.

What I recall is each NES's composite output did vary slightly in color, and one of the NES units was visibly darker (not by a whole lot) than the other two. Artifacting also varied a from one NES to the others. The text in the SMB1 title screen I recall looked a little different between the systems, on at least one of the units looking slightly smoother than a third one.

The real take away here is that it was never the exact same image. I believe that people today have gotten so used to having a consistent video picture on HD and 4K televisions, that many of us forget how analog output generation, as well as CRT displays, could vary quite a lot.

So I humbly submit that if the output can vary from one genuine NES to another, than seeing slight differences between a real NES and the composite adapter feels more inline with the reality of analog output generation. I agree there could always be room for improvement (like what was said earlier in this tread about better syncing once cores get updated with that ability), though currently it looks like we can get really close with some of the adapters posted here and elsewhere.

The quest for 100% consistency where it didn't exist between real consoles, isn't a realistic goal, imho, especially when you factor in 1) all the different composite generation hardware used in different game and computer consoles that used it, as well as 2) runs and revisions of the same consoles could have used varying components for analog video generation, giving way to even more potential inconsistency between units of the same console.
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Re: Composite Adapter for MiSTer

Unread post by dshadoff »

This was basically the point that I started with as well, being a person who experienced composite for over half of my life.
So I purchased one of Antonio's adapters to see for myself.

Unfortunately, I haven't got it to work reliably yet. I get a picture for about a second, then nothing (and repeat).
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Re: Composite Adapter for MiSTer

Unread post by LeftEmpty »

I bought an RGB to composite adapter from Axunworks and it has been interesting, but I think I should test it further.

The adapter worked only through VGA to VGA connection through the I/O board (using a VGA to SCART adapter didn't work at all). Only a few cores actually worked: the NES, SNES and PCE ones mainly. The Megadrive one didn't at all.
The artefacting was really intense, on par with the only real composite hardware I have left, which is for the PC Engine. It seemed to be much stronger than what I remembered from the NES and SNES composite.
As expected, this required quite a lot of tunage versus standard RGB, which means it's really more of a curiosity I'd use on occasion than something I'd do regularly, because of all the hassle of having to fiddle with cables first, and then tune the CRT, and back again for other RGB consoles.
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Re: Composite Adapter for MiSTer

Unread post by aberu »

gordonfish wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:09 pm Been reading through this thread, and while I understand the desire to have absolutely perfect-like-original output, it really feels to me like people really forget how inconsistent composite (as well as S-video and esepcially RF) could be.

I remember back in the 90s of doing an experiment with a couple of friends, who each brought their NES (USA front loaders, all the same model) that were each connected via composite one at a time, by quickly swapping the same RCA video cable between them. The point of the experiment was to see if they all ran at the same speed, to see if they all looked the same, and what, if any, differences there were.

What I recall is each NES's composite output did vary slightly in color, and one of the NES units was visibly darker (not by a whole lot) than the other two. Artifacting also varied a from one NES to the others. The text in the SMB1 title screen I recall looked a little different between the systems, on at least one of the units looking slightly smoother than a third one.

The real take away here is that it was never the exact same image. I believe that people today have gotten so used to having a consistent video picture on HD and 4K televisions, that many of us forget how analog output generation, as well as CRT displays, could vary quite a lot.

So I humbly submit that if the output can vary from one genuine NES to another, than seeing slight differences between a real NES and the composite adapter feels more inline with the reality of analog output generation. I agree there could always be room for improvement (like what was said earlier in this tread about better syncing once cores get updated with that ability), though currently it looks like we can get really close with some of the adapters posted here and elsewhere.

The quest for 100% consistency where it didn't exist between real consoles, isn't a realistic goal, imho, especially when you factor in 1) all the different composite generation hardware used in different game and computer consoles that used it, as well as 2) runs and revisions of the same consoles could have used varying components for analog video generation, giving way to even more potential inconsistency between units of the same console.
I gotta come back for this since I feel like I'm being literally gaslighted on this, and people are incorrectly being led to believe I'm delusional or something or just misremembering. This is not a "slight difference", this is a directly demonstrable severe difference. I can't test it anymore since I literally gave antonio's adapter away for free since I didn't feel it was right to sell it for anything since I knew of it's significant flaws. Also, unlike antonio, I actively informed the person I gave it away to for free that it had significant issues. Because that's what people with some shred of *integrity* do.

I have now tested the same games on a Sega Mega Jet, Genesis Model 1 (VA6), and a JVC X'eye, and none of them exhibit the same behavior, across all 3 CRT's that span over a decade of manufacturing and 3 different brands. I have to say that it feels pretty frustrating to be told that I have false memories when I have done direct live comparisons with original hardware in person. Again, let's be clear, this is not dot crawl. This was rainbow luma interference, as described here --> https://www.renesas.com/us/en/document/ ... techniques
colortrap.png
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Colors from the luma signal are bleeding into the composite signal, because either there is now YTRAP or there is an insufficient YTRAP, is the most likely cause, but whatever.

If you are thinking that white borders around characters avatars in games like Shining Force II had a constantly moving wave of rainbows flying over them, I gotta dispute that, since that effect literally didn't happen across 3 different systems now on 3 different CRT's, for the same platform (Sega Genesis) with the original hardware I have on hand. The only time that happened was with antoniovillena's composite adapter. The only time I saw this super jarring effect that generates problems. Maybe you all are playing on PAL CRT's, I'm not.I switched his to NTSC, I tried different jumpers, I tried multiple permutations of settings combinations, I tried removing the jumper (obv didn't work), so many more things as I've already said here.The frequency of the Rainbow chroma effect changed with 3.3v vs 5v on the vga jumper.

Fact is if you say "it generates the same signal as original hardware", you'd better be right, since it's kinda insulting when it obviously does not. I demonstrated it doesn't, dshadoff has also seen significant deviation from original hardware and they are an expert on the PC-Engine video output for the core development.
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Re: Composite Adapter for MiSTer

Unread post by dshadoff »

To be clear, I haven't got my AntonioVillena adapter working to the point where I can compare the output, but my intention was to evaluate the output.
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Re: Composite Adapter for MiSTer

Unread post by aberu »

Right. If it were generating the same signals, then it would work on your CRT correct? :P
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Re: Composite Adapter for MiSTer

Unread post by gordonfish »

aberu wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:22 am I gotta come back for this since I feel like I'm being literally gaslighted on this, and people are incorrectly being led to believe I'm delusional or something or just misremembering.
I never intended to imply or give that idea to anyone, and I apologize if I came across that way, as that's not how I feel.

I don't have the adapter in question so I cannot speak to what it actually produces.

My main point was simply that composite (and RF as well as S-Video, and even to some extent, component) was/is not consistent in the same way HDMI, DVI, and DP are, in that you could take multiple instances of the same system set to the same resolution and showing the same image, connected through an HDMI, DP, etc switcher and observe the same pixel-consistent output for each of them (barring LCD scaling shenanigans), where as the old analog connections, as well as analog TVs/monitors (or ports, as I had a GE 27" tv circa 1990 where one RCA input looked better than the other) could indeed vary quite a bit (producing different artifacts or to different degrees, that sort of thing.)
This is not a "slight difference", this is a directly demonstrable severe difference.
I have now tested the same games on a Sega Mega Jet, Genesis Model 1 (VA6), and a JVC X'eye, and none of them exhibit the same behavior, across all 3 CRT's that span over a decade of manufacturing and 3 different brands.
I don't doubt any of what you're saying, as I don't have this adapter. Though one thing I wonder is if that's enough of a sample pool, if only because I remember seeing a Genesis model 2 in the 1990s that had some strange composite artifacts that didn't occur over RF on the same unit, though I can't be sure it wasn't the TV (I don't believe it was the cable since it was also used with my Genesis model 1, but since an adapter had to be used for the different size DIN on the model 2, that might have been the source of the problem too.)
I have to say that it feels pretty frustrating to be told that I have false memories
Again, I never meant to imply anything like that, and feel that is awful to do to anyone.
when I have done direct live comparisons with original hardware in person.
I too had done tests, with NESes as I described in my post, where there were some very noticeable inconsistencies, though I can't say if they were at the same level as what you saw with the adapter in question. I can only say that there was enough inconsistency to make me not want to rush to conclusions about things like adapters in general. I believe you are in earnest about you saw and I don't doubt your tests, though it's be nice to see a video showing what you've observed, if only to get a better idea of what you're were seeing.
Again, let's be clear, this is not dot crawl. This was rainbow luma interference, as described here --> https://www.renesas.com/us/en/document/ ... techniques
Thanks, I will take a look at this.
Fact is if you say "it generates the same signal as original hardware", you'd better be right, since it's kinda insulting when it obviously does not.
I agree completely. It should at least be very close, within the same margin of error that can be demonstrated on an array of real hardware. We just can't and should not expect 100% consistency with one or two particular units of an original console, but need to be aware of how various units of one console could actually vary (like in that NES test I described in my post.)
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Re: Composite Adapter for MiSTer

Unread post by aberu »

gordonfish wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:18 pm I never intended to imply or give that idea to anyone, and I apologize if I came across that way, as that's not how I feel.
Sorry for kinda snapping on you... it's been a frustrating subject precisely because antonio has deliberately lied about me and there have been others who are saying I just don't remember what composite was like, which is false, and irrelevant since I directly compared now with multiple pieces of hardware spanning over a decade since being manufactured. You just kinda inadvertently piled on and got caught in the crossfire, I apologize.
gordonfish wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:18 pmI don't doubt any of what you're saying, as I don't have this adapter. Though one thing I wonder is if that's enough of a sample pool, if only because I remember seeing a Genesis model 2 in the 1990s that had some strange composite artifacts that didn't occur over RF on the same unit, though I can't be sure it wasn't the TV (I don't believe it was the cable since it was also used with my Genesis model 1, but since an adapter had to be used for the different size DIN on the model 2, that might have been the source of the problem too.)
If 3 CRTs from 3 brands across 12+ years of MFG, with 3 different models of essentially the same system attached to each (9 permutations) isn't enough samples to confirm how original hardware works on CRTs in general, then I think your bar for what is a good sample size might be a bit unreasonable personally, for the average consumer. That's the reference sample size of 3x3, the comparison was one MiSTer on 3 different CRT's all showing the same problem when compared to the reference...
gordonfish wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:18 pmI agree completely. It should at least be very close, within the same margin of error that can be demonstrated on an array of real hardware. We just can't and should not expect 100% consistency with one or two particular units of an original console, but need to be aware of how various units of one console could actually vary (like in that NES test I described in my post.)
I never expected 100%, but the color rainbow spamming across all bright colors that was more pronounced the brighter the color, was incredibly jarring and distracting and made it basically unusable. I'm not *that* picky :P
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Re: Composite Adapter for MiSTer

Unread post by HappehLemons »

Bump of the dead here, but I am having similar issues and wondering if anyone has found a solution.

It's hard to figure out if this is due to Antonio's adapter though, because while I do notice this on NES & SNES, it's something I have to look for to see.

However, the Genesis core looks truly awful. Intense rainbow banding, dot crawl and colors that look way off. Even my wife who see me play retro games all the time but doesn't *look* for these issues asked me "What's wrong with the video on this?".

Compared to my original Genesis model 2, I get no rainbow banding, dot crawling and color that look correct. Castlevaina is a prime example, although I didn't take this picture myself, it looks very close to the Analogue DAC genesis video bug pictured below.


My next CRT may not have component inputs, so I was looking for a composite solution (Also I prefer it for Genesis due to the dithering) .
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Re: Composite Adapter for MiSTer

Unread post by AnimMaDeR »

I have Antonio’s adapter and I love it. I run s-video and most cores look amazing. Some cores like Arkanoid and Rampage have a green tint but those are the exceptions.

Highly recommend his adapter if you have s-video inputs. Almost as good as running component. Very close.

I had a composite-only CRT TV but found one locally that had s-video. If you aren’t liking composite, it shouldn’t be too hard to find an s-video CRT.
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Re: Composite Adapter for MiSTer

Unread post by pbsk8 »

AnimMaDeR wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:56 pm I have Antonio’s adapter and I love it. I run s-video and most cores look amazing. Some cores like Arkanoid and Rampage have a green tint but those are the exceptions.

Highly recommend his adapter if you have s-video inputs. Almost as good as running component. Very close.

I had a composite-only CRT TV but found one locally that had s-video. If you aren’t liking composite, it shouldn’t be too hard to find an s-video CRT.
his is only svideo adapter available? quite expensive for me with shipping and tax. plus is need a modification in the board right? I suck at electronics.

I have a 21' crt svideo here I used to play ps2 and wii and getting dust now because I cant use it with mister here.
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Re: Composite Adapter for MiSTer

Unread post by HappehLemons »

AnimMaDeR wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:56 pm I have Antonio’s adapter and I love it. I run s-video and most cores look amazing. Some cores like Arkanoid and Rampage have a green tint but those are the exceptions.

Highly recommend his adapter if you have s-video inputs. Almost as good as running component. Very close.

I had a composite-only CRT TV but found one locally that had s-video. If you aren’t liking composite, it shouldn’t be too hard to find an s-video CRT.
The issue seems to be exclusive to Composite output. On Sega Genesis for games that rely dithering it’s preferred as well as s-video is too sharp. PS1 wold in theory take advantage of this as well.
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Re: Composite Adapter for MiSTer

Unread post by FoxbatStargazer »

For Genesis you don't just need composite, you need bad composite.

Each system had its own, idosyncratic composite flaws, which makes replicating them in a general purpose device difficult to impossible. That can in turn make those composite tricks less effective depending on the targeted system and technique used.
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Re: Composite Adapter for MiSTer

Unread post by HappehLemons »

FoxbatStargazer wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:39 am For Genesis you don't just need composite, you need bad composite.

Each system had its own, idosyncratic composite flaws, which makes replicating them in a general purpose device difficult to impossible. That can in turn make those composite tricks less effective depending on the targeted system and technique used.
Sure, maybe to replicate the proper dithering you’d need a filter on top here - but for some reason on the MiSTer, the composite for Genesis is actually worse then the composite the original. The screen has a ton of dot crawl and rainbow banding, objectify producing an worse Image then any original Genesis system revision I’ve ever used.
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