CRT vs. LCD "Disadvantage of CRT with Cores"

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CRT vs. LCD "Disadvantage of CRT with Cores"

Unread post by marcelosofth »

Friends, I'm not sure if I buy a '21 CRT TV, but there are disadvantages like per example, the Vectrex core doesn't work, I won't be able to use the Vertical Arcade games because I won't be able to rotate the TV vertically, framing the image not always will be as embedded as the LCD.

Are there any other disadvantages that I don't know about? :oops:
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Re: CRT vs. LCD "Disadvantage of CRT with Cores"

Unread post by Bunker »

Possibly the response rate but good oleds these days are not far behind, mines 1ms.
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Re: CRT vs. LCD "Disadvantage of CRT with Cores"

Unread post by Sigismond0 »

I think you've hit the two big ones. Anything that isn't a 15khz source (Vectrex, some PC cores) straight up won't work. You can't rotate the video on any analog output, so some arcade cores will be sideways. Aside from that, running scripts like the ini file editor or the menu in update_all won't work on a CRT unless you change some settings, and even then are a bit clunky due to the size. I guess you can't use filters/shadow masks, but that should be pretty irrelevant.
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Re: CRT vs. LCD "Disadvantage of CRT with Cores"

Unread post by Wave »

If you're young enough you can still hear certain high-pitched whines CRTs emit, which some people find annoying. I never found it too bothersome though.
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Re: CRT vs. LCD "Disadvantage of CRT with Cores"

Unread post by marcelosofth »

In fact I need more things in favor of the LCD for me to forget about buying the CRT once and for all, I need more negative facts about the CRT for the Mister, can anyone help? hehe!
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Re: CRT vs. LCD "Disadvantage of CRT with Cores"

Unread post by Sigismond0 »

LCD gives you a bigger screen area, doesn't require you to buy an extra display, doesn't cost you anything since you already have it, and looks great especially now that we have shadow mask filters. You never have convergence or geometry issues, and can play literally everything on the MiSTer without any compromise.

I have a 20" PVM that now just lives in basement storage because it just doesn't offer any tangible benefits. Like, it's cool to show off, but I never use it. It takes up so much real estate compared to my 50" plasma, and the screen's just tiny. It's got some convergence issues in one corner, and definitely has a "CRT whine". It's heavy as all hell to move around. I need to find an extra power outlet to run it, have to have special cables and adapters all over the place, plus speakers since the internal one is mono and sounds like trash. I'm glad I got it and enjoyed it when I did use it, but with all the video filtering functionality we have now, I just see no reason to use it in my setup.
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Re: CRT vs. LCD "Disadvantage of CRT with Cores"

Unread post by marcelosofth »

Sigismond0 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:19 pm LCD gives you a bigger screen area, doesn't require you to buy an extra display, doesn't cost you anything since you already have it, and looks great especially now that we have shadow mask filters. You never have convergence or geometry issues, and can play literally everything on the MiSTer without any compromise.

I have a 20" PVM that now just lives in basement storage because it just doesn't offer any tangible benefits. Like, it's cool to show off, but I never use it. It takes up so much real estate compared to my 50" plasma, and the screen's just tiny. It's got some convergence issues in one corner, and definitely has a "CRT whine". It's heavy as all hell to move around. I need to find an extra power outlet to run it, have to have special cables and adapters all over the place, plus speakers since the internal one is mono and sounds like trash. I'm glad I got it and enjoyed it when I did use it, but with all the video filtering functionality we have now, I just see no reason to use it in my setup.
Thanks for the reply, I actually use a Samsung Oled '55 TV and my biggest dissatisfaction is that I didn't get a fluid Vertical Scroll, I already tried and couldn't find a setting, did you get it?

I would really like to get the configuration of this video: 5x Scaling

https://youtu.be/HlBSnI3NnfQ

Ps. In the responses to the comment of this video it says tet achieved the smooth and fluid vertical scroll, the biggest test is the Xevious Arcade.
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Re: CRT vs. LCD "Disadvantage of CRT with Cores"

Unread post by Swainy »

Just remember that you can hook up more that one CRT to a MiSTer if you use a VGA switch box or split VGA to RGB Scart cable and still have a modern screen hooked up via HDMI.

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Re: CRT vs. LCD "Disadvantage of CRT with Cores"

Unread post by akeley »

Sigismond0 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:19 pm LCD gives you a bigger screen area, doesn't require you to buy an extra display, doesn't cost you anything since you already have it, and looks great especially now that we have shadow mask filters. You never have convergence or geometry issues, and can play literally everything on the MiSTer without any compromise.

I have a 20" PVM that now just lives in basement storage because it just doesn't offer any tangible benefits. Like, it's cool to show off, but I never use it. It takes up so much real estate compared to my 50" plasma, and the screen's just tiny. It's got some convergence issues in one corner, and definitely has a "CRT whine". It's heavy as all hell to move around. I need to find an extra power outlet to run it, have to have special cables and adapters all over the place, plus speakers since the internal one is mono and sounds like trash. I'm glad I got it and enjoyed it when I did use it, but with all the video filtering functionality we have now, I just see no reason to use it in my setup.
Your 50" plasma really is lighter and takes less space than a 20" PVM? That's some magical telly you have right there ;)
I mean, each to its own, but most of your arguments are stretched very thin and are rather one-sided. "Extra power outlet?". Dear me.

There are heaps of benefits coming from using a CRT, with the most important being the still-unmatched picture quality when it comes to old games - which is why I keep them around. No problem if people wants to use the modern panels, but there's no need to invent some fantastical reasons to justify it.
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Re: CRT vs. LCD "Disadvantage of CRT with Cores"

Unread post by C-R-T »

I only have a crt connected and sometimes if I try a core will not work at all because they use an incompatible video mode, so I have to restart the Mister. That’s kinda annoying. Feels like I’m missing out. Some examples include ao486, X68000, Pc-88…

I’m never getting an lcd, though!
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Re: CRT vs. LCD "Disadvantage of CRT with Cores"

Unread post by kalach.x »

Plasma panels offer similar sharpness in motion to CRT. It is not quite there but far superior to any LCD. Except maybe those which can flicker at low refresh rates but these are as rare as two horned unicorns and they flicker too much and tire eyes quickly unlike plasma or even CRT. One issue with plasma panels is that at least Panasonics stopped supporting 50Hz at 50Hz flicker since some model. I have Panasonic 42VT30 and it plays 50Hz content at 100Hz and so there is image doubling for 50Hz systems/games. On 60Hz it all looks and plays great.

To have 21" CRT you do not need 15KHz PVM or TV. You can get VGA monitor in this size with superior sharpness and almost not noticeable shadow mask (from normal distances anyways) which if you need to be as bad as on CRT TV's you can always simulate using shadow mask feature. Same with scan lines. When resolution is high enough like in 1600x1200 you won't see original scan lines and emulating them with scan-line filter gives effect very similar to PVM. Except maybe that 21" PVM has very wide gaps between lines and on VGA CRT you can regulate how wide scan-lines are. VGA CRT also supports all systems which operate in VGA modes like Sharp X68000 and you can even get ao486 to display native VGA resolutions making experience pretty much like old MS-DOS PC. Then connecting Mister which has VGA output to VGA CRT is a breeze, you just connect it as is to I/O board while for 15KHz you need some kind of adapter. I use VGA to Component dongle and RGsB signals to connect to 15KHz PVM but for example I have no way for now to connect Mister to a TV or JVC 15KHz monitor with SCART card installed.

VGA CRT allows you to use scan-doubler and display near-native video timings. Though then you won't have fancy scanline filters. But there are non-fancy scanlines available for it when needed in this mode. In this setup you can just like with 15KHz CRT output different resolution through I/O board and different through HDMI. It is also possible to use HDMI to VGA converter if you are not gonna connect Mister to two display devices at once or do not want to buy analog I/O board. Converters usually have sound output if that is required and there are some with S/PDIF also.
marcelosofth wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:50 pm In fact I need more things in favor of the LCD for me to forget about buying the CRT once and for all, I need more negative facts about the CRT for the Mister, can anyone help? hehe!
Did I mention modern displays have terrible motion performance https://blurbusters.com/faq/lcd-motion-artifacts/ ?

Almost all (good) old systems had games running at displays refresh rate which on CRT have perfect sharpness in motion. You can not see any difference in sharpness on moving vs stationary sprites/backgrounds on CRT while on LCD it all blurs as soon as it starts moving to the point you can not see any details. It really removes wow factor when playing old games even if for your standard point and click 3D game like Call of Duty LCD seems adequate (though it still play better on VGA CRT, especially when you have those fancy wide-screen aspect ratio ones)

None of your arguments apply to VGA CRT like lacking framing or whatever else. Scaler features all work and all work even better than on LCD because you do not have to worry about things like resolutions and what not. CRT accepts anything within its horizontal/vertical scan range and displays it perfectly without any worries about hidden input lag or skipped frames.

And you can even get one which looks totally awesome like IBM P275
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Photo not mine but I did have one (kinda still have it at my parents) and it is one of the better 4:3 CRT monitors you can get.
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Re: CRT vs. LCD "Disadvantage of CRT with Cores"

Unread post by marcelosofth »

It's easier here in Brazil to find 4 white unicorns than a monitor like this IBM P275 😆
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Re: CRT vs. LCD "Disadvantage of CRT with Cores"

Unread post by H6rdc0re »

CRT is superior to LCD and Plasma. Only technology superior is OLED. Current model OLED like the LG CX/C1 and higher end series can do near perfect motion due to BFI with perfect contrast and low input lag. Newer models will be even better with higher brigtness allowing stacking of BFI and scanlines.

Choosing between CRT and LCD for retro gaming should be very easy. CRT by multiple light years.
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Re: CRT vs. LCD "Disadvantage of CRT with Cores"

Unread post by redsteakraw »

CRTs still just feel right they look the best and have the lowest lag. The cons are that they don't work with certain cores like vectrex, they have burn in concerns, use a lot of electricity and don't have rotation so you have to manually rotate the heavy screen for some cores. LCDs are usually cheap, big and allow for rotation and display effects. They can be rotated in software and with the shadowmask filters they are coming close to the actual CRT look. Really it comes down to what you like. Just remember if you are using a LCD minimize the lag by disabling display features and put the screen in game mode.
Fear is the mind killer!
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Re: CRT vs. LCD "Disadvantage of CRT with Cores"

Unread post by dshadoff »

Everything will run on HDMI (i.e. LCD or OLED); the VGA output is output *AS GENERATED BY THE ORIGINAL CIRCUITRY*, meaning that:

(1) If your specific CRT doesn't support that output, you should not expect to see anything... and nobody can guarantee that the signal will not cause harm to the monitor, especially in the case of unsupported frequencies.

These CRT characteristics include (but are not limited to):
- number of scanlines
- horizontal refresh rate
- vertical refresh rate

(2) Vector cores cannot drive a regular CRT as there is no currently-defined vector output. There is generally a rasterizer in the core, but limiting output to 240p makes the output look absolutely terrible.

(3) Color output is limited to 6/6/6 bits from the VGA connector due to insufficient GPIO pins for anything higher. HDMI is 8/8/8, but with direct HDMI output, this can be used through a dongle to drive a CRT.


I am assuming that you have already considered that the other downsides of CRTs are acceptable to you:
- extra weight
- challenges with cores which run as rotated
- requirement for additional maintenance and tuning
- age-related problems
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Re: CRT vs. LCD "Disadvantage of CRT with Cores"

Unread post by Sigismond0 »

akeley wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:12 am I mean, each to its own, but most of your arguments are stretched very thin and are rather one-sided.
OP asked for reasons not to get a CRT, I just obliged. Not trying to suggest that flat panels are superior or not, just providing answers as requested. Don't take it too seriously.
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Re: CRT vs. LCD "Disadvantage of CRT with Cores"

Unread post by marcelosofth »

In the answers I believe that the fight is level between CRT and LCD, and now who can save me? 🐕
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Re: CRT vs. LCD "Disadvantage of CRT with Cores"

Unread post by Bas »

Get one of both, use them simultaneously!
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Re: CRT vs. LCD "Disadvantage of CRT with Cores"

Unread post by thorr »

All this has probably been said, but here it is in a nutshell from my perspective. What is your goal? That tells you what to do.

If your goal is zero lag and the ability to play Duck Hunt, you need either a CRT TV or a VGA monitor (yes this works). If you get a VGA monitor it is the best of both worlds because it has extra resolution and arcade games can be used with the scaler and you don't need to rotate it. This would add a frame of lag in this case, same as an LCD if you didn't physically rotate that. The drawback of a VGA monitor is it does not look the same as a CRT TV, so if you want that authentic look, you need a CRT TV.

The simplest solution to solve all problems is to get a CRT TV, and a VGA monitor or an LCD. If you don't have the space, then an LCD is better because you can turn it and store it next to the CRT when not in use and put it in front, when in use. If you do have the space, a VGA monitor is much better IMO. I recently got a Dell 17" VGA monitor and I had an equivalent to that 21" IBM above before that died, and I much prefer the 17" because it looks amazing and is not huge on the desk.

Anything but a CRT TV does not look right. If you care about that, there is your answer.
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Re: CRT vs. LCD "Disadvantage of CRT with Cores"

Unread post by kalach.x »

thorr wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:27 pm The drawback of a VGA monitor is it does not look the same as a CRT TV, so if you want that authentic look, you need a CRT TV.
I completely disagree with that statement :!:

VGA CRT can use scanline filters such as Scan_Br_125_NN.txt with NN being the level of scanlines gaps vs brightness that you want to achieve. It is easy to achieve the same look as 15KHz CRT.

I got $15 17" curved VGA monitor and >$300 17" professional video monitor from JVC and they have comparable quality when ran next to each-other the same game. It is quite ridiculous really but Mister has really awesome scaler.

In the past when I delved in software emulation none of the emulators I used had good filters and I always wanted something that will brighten everything and make brighter pixels bigger. This is what these Mister filter do and they do it perfectly. It is recently also possible to add more grainy shadow mask artifacts if that is someone's thing (even if to check how that looks if not for actually using it) and this works because VGA CRT's have very high resolution, their own shadow masks are barely visible up close and no native VGA monitor scanlines can be seen with high enough resolution like >1000 lines.

Gamma, motion performance, etc are all identical.
If you do have the space, a VGA monitor is much better IMO. I recently got a Dell 17" VGA monitor and I had an equivalent to that 21" IBM above before that died, and I much prefer the 17" because it looks amazing and is not huge on the desk.
Desk space is the universal reason why people threw away CRTs and even if they have tons of desk space and can keep giant LCD monitos they often cannot stand even small 15" CRT on their desk. I believe there is some conspiracy behind that but I do not want to anger squirrels so I will shut up :cry:

But for all seriousness. I also would also recommend getting smaller VGA CRT.
Especially for someone who didn't use them for a while. Bigger Trinitrons are actually harder on eyes at 50/60Hz than typical cheap VGA monitor because those cheaper models used slower phosphors, more similar to TV's, PVM's and other such 15KHz monitors. 50Hz on something like SONY GDM-FW900, a giant 24" 16:10 CRT is absolutely horrendous while I can use 50Hz on 15KHz CRT and cheap 17" VGA CRT just fine. Also bigger Trinitrons are known for rising G2 voltage value issue and they need some servicing once few years. It is easy to do but not everyone will be willing to do it, especially if they got this thing not being convinced and without prior burn-in period in to CRT bliss.
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Re: CRT vs. LCD "Disadvantage of CRT with Cores"

Unread post by kalach.x »

marcelosofth wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:20 pm In the answers I believe that the fight is level between CRT and LCD, and now who can save me? 🐕
Mr. Flatron perhaps? :lol:

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Re: CRT vs. LCD "Disadvantage of CRT with Cores"

Unread post by thorr »

kalach.x wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:35 pm I completely disagree with that statement :!:
I guess we need to agree to disagree. In my opinion, VGA monitors looks fantastic, but they look like monitors. CRT TV's look fantastic, but they look like TV's. They each have a unique look. If you want it to look right, it needs to be on the right corresponding display. TV's are much "brighter" because they are meant to be viewed from across the room. They also have much more bloom to them. Monitors look much sharper, less "bright" and much less bloom. TV's can get away with being 36" like I have and display 320x200 content and have it look good because it has the characteristics of a TV. A 36" monitor (if they made one that big) running 320x200 would look totally blocky when displaying the same pixels. As soon as you add filters to make it look authentic, you are getting away from the whole point of using a CRT to begin with. You are now adding potential lag and faking the look. It looks pretty convincing, but it is uniformly fake throughout the picture and still doesn't have the brightness and bloom that a CRT TV has. Comparing a VGA monitor to a PVM is like comparing apples to apples. They are nearly the same thing, except the PVM can accept 15KHz signals. Even with 15KHz signals, the PVM still looks more like a monitor than a TV. The picture is cleaner are cripser. This is good for computers, and less good for consoles. This is my opinion.
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Re: CRT vs. LCD "Disadvantage of CRT with Cores"

Unread post by marcelosofth »

I will give my Samsung '55 led tv one more chance using filters as a crt tv can't use all cores and can't use Arcade vertical, a vga' 20 monitor is rare these days so I don't have many choices, thanks friends for advice and opinions.

Ps. Can anyone share the mister.ini file so I can get Scaler 5x?
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Re: CRT vs. LCD "Disadvantage of CRT with Cores"

Unread post by FoxbatStargazer »

video_mode=8, vscale_mode=0. In the HUD of the core look for vertical crop. Turn any borders off if applicable.
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Re: CRT vs. LCD "Disadvantage of CRT with Cores"

Unread post by thorr »

vscale_mode=1,2 or 3 for integer scaling. 1 is best but may have bigger black areas. If that bothers you, increase it to 2 or 3. You can do this per core with [core_name] before it.

I didn't try the above suggestion, so that may be better.

Edit: Forget this post. This is the old-school way of doing it and is not 5x scaling.
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Re: CRT vs. LCD "Disadvantage of CRT with Cores"

Unread post by FoxbatStargazer »

Most cores will not do 5x crop without vscale_mode=0 and usually 1080p (video_mode=8, or 9 for PAL)
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Re: CRT vs. LCD "Disadvantage of CRT with Cores"

Unread post by thorr »

I hadn't seen 5x scaling until now. I just watched the video above. That is a very cool option!
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Re: CRT vs. LCD "Disadvantage of CRT with Cores"

Unread post by MikkyTee »

thorr wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 6:09 pm
kalach.x wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:35 pm I completely disagree with that statement :!:
I guess we need to agree to disagree. In my opinion, VGA monitors looks fantastic, but they look like monitors. CRT TV's look fantastic, but they look like TV's. They each have a unique look. If you want it to look right, it needs to be on the right corresponding display. TV's are much "brighter" because they are meant to be viewed from across the room. They also have much more bloom to them. Monitors look much sharper, less "bright" and much less bloom. TV's can get away with being 36" like I have and display 320x200 content and have it look good because it has the characteristics of a TV. A 36" monitor (if they made one that big) running 320x200 would look totally blocky when displaying the same pixels. As soon as you add filters to make it look authentic, you are getting away from the whole point of using a CRT to begin with. You are now adding potential lag and faking the look. It looks pretty convincing, but it is uniformly fake throughout the picture and still doesn't have the brightness and bloom that a CRT TV has. Comparing a VGA monitor to a PVM is like comparing apples to apples. They are nearly the same thing, except the PVM can accept 15KHz signals. Even with 15KHz signals, the PVM still looks more like a monitor than a TV. The picture is cleaner are cripser. This is good for computers, and less good for consoles. This is my opinion.
I agree with all this, im trying a pc crt at the moment, along with a Dell 4:3 20in for the vertical stuff. The PC monitor is so crisp that i need the filters to make it look like an old tv with scan lines and a slight blur to it. Without those it just looks like a flat panel. The shadow mask it has is very fine, i can hardly see it. The colours are really nice though and i have found some settings i like, but im always tweaking it really. My mind isnt settled on it just yet, and i may just go back to my small sony flat screen tv and save on the desk space until i find a crt tv locally.
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Re: CRT vs. LCD "Disadvantage of CRT with Cores"

Unread post by Narenek »

I'm a CRT user with my Mister and love them but they definitely have some disadvantages

1: Size. While not as high or wide as a decent size LCD they are certainly deeper. They are not as easy to find a surface to put them on and you certainly can't hang them on a wall. You really need to think about where you can put them when compared to plasma/LCD.

2: Weight. They weigh considerably more than LCD's to the point that items that take the weight of an LCD easily, can't take a larger CRT. I have a 29" Sony CRT and it's in the region of 46KG (according to the old manuals) and very bulky so difficult to move around, and almost impossible solo.

3: Whine/noise: There's definitely a high pitched whine with some CRT's that people can hear. You also sometimes get like an interference noise similar to an untuned radio if playing stuff loud.

4: Sound: If using a CRT monitor as opposed to a TV they generally don't have speakers so require external sound. Even on CRT's sound quality varies wildly with cheap CRT's having terrible sound even when brand new, and even some CRT's having just mono sound.

5: Connection: Depending on your CRT there's various ways to connect from S-Video to VGA to Scart. These all require particular end points and aren't always easy to get for a mister. You can buy cables specially for it but they cost a decent amount to get decent ones and add to the cost.

6: Cost: OK they are generally cheaper than buying a new LCD TV, but for what they are and what you use them for they are generally pricey (and getting pricier). To get a decent sized and quality CRT monitor your looking at a few hundred, and at the top end potentially more than a reasonable mid sized LCD.

7: Age: They are all old. The supply of replacement parts is rapidly drying up and these CRT's are wearing out. Buying one is a little bit of a risk these days, you could have a perfectly good CRT and a month or two down the road it develops problems. Finding someone to repair them is difficult and getting more difficult
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Re: CRT vs. LCD "Disadvantage of CRT with Cores"

Unread post by caad »

On the topic of cost, wtf no. You do not need a PVM or even Trinitron to get "quality".
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