Scart vs VGA

Discussion about displays and related hardware including MiSTer filters and video settings.
User avatar
bazza_12
Top Contributor
Posts: 404
Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 7:49 pm
Location: Yorkshire, UK
Has thanked: 247 times
Been thanked: 112 times
Contact:

Scart vs VGA

Unread post by bazza_12 »

So, I'm using the VGA output on the I/O board with a VGA>SCART cable feeding into a 14" Philips (1990ish) portable CRT TV.. The picture is crystal clear - no issues.. My question is, is there any real difference/benefit to me if I get a similar sized VGA monitor and use a VGA cable directly? Will the image be sharper than my current SCART connection?
The music is reversible but time is not. Turn back. Turn back
RascalUK
Posts: 156
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:02 pm
Location: Manchester, UK
Has thanked: 72 times
Been thanked: 23 times
Contact:

Re: Scart vs VGA

Unread post by RascalUK »

I'm doing the same to a 14" Panasonic, picture is amazing, and weirdly about 10 mins ago I was thinking of trying a VGA cable to my monitor!
User avatar
bazza_12
Top Contributor
Posts: 404
Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 7:49 pm
Location: Yorkshire, UK
Has thanked: 247 times
Been thanked: 112 times
Contact:

Re: Scart vs VGA

Unread post by bazza_12 »

yeah i'm curious to know, if its worth me getting a vga monitor or is the scart pretty much the same quality..
The music is reversible but time is not. Turn back. Turn back
MiSTer_Kirk
Posts: 210
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:42 pm
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 46 times

Re: Scart vs VGA

Unread post by MiSTer_Kirk »

I don't think you'll find many, if any, VGA monitors that could do 15hz, or even 31hz. Most are probably 50hz minimum.
There are some old VGA LCD monitors that were able to do 15hz at their lowest resolution, but they often look terrible compared to a CRT.
akeley
Top Contributor
Posts: 1303
Joined: Mon May 25, 2020 7:54 pm
Has thanked: 416 times
Been thanked: 399 times

Re: Scart vs VGA

Unread post by akeley »

Yes, it will look sharper but this is a misguided pursuit, imo. The softer image on consumer sets was the equivalent of natural antialiasing in games. If you switch to VGA will lose the benefits of the more natural shadowmask/scanline combo, since on a VGA monitor they are different and look not far off from the "raw" HDMI output.

EDIT: I'm talking strictly about CRT VGA monitors, of course.
User avatar
darksakul
Posts: 352
Joined: Mon May 25, 2020 4:34 pm
Has thanked: 397 times
Been thanked: 73 times

Re: Scart vs VGA

Unread post by darksakul »

Its all subjective
It is my great regret that we live in an age that is proud of machines that think and suspicious of people who try to.
akeley
Top Contributor
Posts: 1303
Joined: Mon May 25, 2020 7:54 pm
Has thanked: 416 times
Been thanked: 399 times

Re: Scart vs VGA

Unread post by akeley »

Personal preferences are subjective. The fact that majority of games from that era was made for people with consumer CRT sets, isn't.

For those who prefer the "sharp" look, I wouldn't bother with VGA monitors and just stick with modern HDMI displays. Less fuss and better IQ than some early LCDs.
User avatar
bazza_12
Top Contributor
Posts: 404
Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 7:49 pm
Location: Yorkshire, UK
Has thanked: 247 times
Been thanked: 112 times
Contact:

Re: Scart vs VGA

Unread post by bazza_12 »

nice one.. I'll stick with my current setup then :)
The music is reversible but time is not. Turn back. Turn back
FoxbatStargazer
Top Contributor
Posts: 994
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:44 pm
Has thanked: 309 times
Been thanked: 228 times

Re: Scart vs VGA

Unread post by FoxbatStargazer »

This is more a question of whether you like scanlines, because a real VGA monitor demands a 31khz signal (480p) and you will need to use the scandoubler for most systems. The scandoublerfx scanlines aren't really as good/sharp as the real thing. While some highly detailed/well shaded games can look amazing sans scanlines, feeling more like a DOS VGA game, some of the simpler/flatter console games look kind of terrible being so sharp and clear IMO. Its' the difference between Castlevania IV and Super Mario World. Although personally I think heavily pre-rendered games like Donkey Kong Country can look much better without scanlines!

As for VGA CRT vs. LCD, even a medicore CRT like mine appears razor sharp at these low resolutions, even compared to perfect integer scaling on LCD, which is kind of a blessing and a curse, because it really seperates the detailed graphics from the flat ones. You do have the bonus of being able to display non-square pixels in perfect sharp clarity, having an authentic curve to the glass, extremely good response times and motion clarity, and being able to sync to any refresh rate at zero lag. To get a comparable experience on an LCD you need to spend a bit of money on a variable refresh gaming monitor, which can be worth it due to size/convenience/power and other uses, but you can often pick up an average VGA CRT for dirt cheap to free with a little looking, so price is as much a factor as preference.
User avatar
Malan
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:58 pm
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: Scart vs VGA

Unread post by Malan »

I'm playing on both CRT TV and CRT VGA monitor. I like the nostalgic look of my consumer 240p CRT TV, but I have to say, I really love the extreme sharpness of the 480p scandoubler look on my CRT VGA monitor. I switch from one to another depending of my mood.
RascalUK
Posts: 156
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:02 pm
Location: Manchester, UK
Has thanked: 72 times
Been thanked: 23 times
Contact:

Re: Scart vs VGA

Unread post by RascalUK »

Took an old wardrobe down to the tip today and there were 4 VGA CRT monitors in the TV bay. They won't let you take them away though. Such a shame.
MiSTer_Kirk
Posts: 210
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:42 pm
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 46 times

Re: Scart vs VGA

Unread post by MiSTer_Kirk »

RascalUK wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:46 pm Took an old wardrobe down to the tip today and there were 4 VGA CRT monitors in the TV bay. They won't let you take them away though. Such a shame.
Yeah, I know someone at my local recycle centre, and the main reason is that IF you hurt yourself, or end up electrocuting yourself then who is liable ?
The chap at my local recycle centre told me, they have no idea the state they're in. Whether they work or don't work, they don't know the history. I have almost begged them, at times, to be allowed to take something home, even when I'm the one taking the risk, they always say no. There were 2 Sony Trinitron CRT TVs, back in 2019, both in good condition, 1x 20", 1x 17", but they said no. :(
User avatar
bazza_12
Top Contributor
Posts: 404
Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 7:49 pm
Location: Yorkshire, UK
Has thanked: 247 times
Been thanked: 112 times
Contact:

Re: Scart vs VGA

Unread post by bazza_12 »

RascalUK wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:46 pm Took an old wardrobe down to the tip today and there were 4 VGA CRT monitors in the TV bay. They won't let you take them away though. Such a shame.
gutted.. i'd have given them a new home..
The music is reversible but time is not. Turn back. Turn back
RascalUK
Posts: 156
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:02 pm
Location: Manchester, UK
Has thanked: 72 times
Been thanked: 23 times
Contact:

Re: Scart vs VGA

Unread post by RascalUK »

It's absolute madness. It seems it's either those being binned generally or people trying to fleece you on ebay for one.
metalfacemark
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:04 pm
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: Scart vs VGA

Unread post by metalfacemark »

I can send you pics if you like, i have 3 screens hooked up to my mister, 20" CRT TV, 19" CRT Monitor and 20" LCD IPS.

I only use the LCD for vertical games (and im finding more just to use the CRT monitor for that as it looks better even if its a bit smaller).
User avatar
bazza_12
Top Contributor
Posts: 404
Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 7:49 pm
Location: Yorkshire, UK
Has thanked: 247 times
Been thanked: 112 times
Contact:

Re: Scart vs VGA

Unread post by bazza_12 »

metalfacemark wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:23 am I can send you pics if you like, i have 3 screens hooked up to my mister, 20" CRT TV, 19" CRT Monitor and 20" LCD IPS
Is the crt tv connected via scart, and the crt monitor via vga connector? i'm curious if there is much difference between these two.
The music is reversible but time is not. Turn back. Turn back
metalfacemark
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:04 pm
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: Scart vs VGA

Unread post by metalfacemark »

https://streamable.com/mv2el1

Not sure how well it translates on video.

Tv is vga to scart and it’s a Sony 20”
Hdmi goes to splitter that uses dvi to the lcd and bvm to vga and ultimately hdmi.

I use the tv for console games, the lcd for vertical arcade games and the crt monitor for computers and arcade stuff as it looks really good
User avatar
bazza_12
Top Contributor
Posts: 404
Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 7:49 pm
Location: Yorkshire, UK
Has thanked: 247 times
Been thanked: 112 times
Contact:

Re: Scart vs VGA

Unread post by bazza_12 »

the hdmi looks really crisp..
but out of the other two the crt monitor looks the best..

thanks for the comparison.. ha! i'm now back to considering getting a crt monitor :lol: :lol: :lol:
The music is reversible but time is not. Turn back. Turn back
akeley
Top Contributor
Posts: 1303
Joined: Mon May 25, 2020 7:54 pm
Has thanked: 416 times
Been thanked: 399 times

Re: Scart vs VGA

Unread post by akeley »

In a shaky cam vid like that CRT TV will always look the worst, because all the visible pixels/scanlines create a messy pattern which confounds the camera sensor (big problem in photography as well). In reality it does look nothing like it.

But if you are after "crispness" then, of course, a monitor will always win. The point I was making earlier though is that extreme sharpness, which is good for text, OSs and apps, does not really benefit retro games, since curves become stairs. That's why we have anti-aliasing in modern games after all. Smooth colour transitions suffer as well. The super sharp pixel blockiness is a modern thing, coming from years of looking at emulators on TFT displays and then being used in all publications and databases.

Alas, it seems that horse has already bolted :)
metalfacemark
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:04 pm
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: Scart vs VGA

Unread post by metalfacemark »

bazza_12 wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:32 am the hdmi looks really crisp..
but out of the other two the crt monitor looks the best..

thanks for the comparison.. ha! i'm now back to considering getting a crt monitor :lol: :lol: :lol:
The crt tv is the best and looks the most vibrant, it looks so good in the flesh. It just looks right.

I’d say it depends what you remember, I had a monitor for my c64/amiga so I prefer the look off those cores on the monitor, for spectrum well I had that hooked up to a tv so the tv picture itches the nostalgia part of my brain for that!

A crt monitor is a good compromise if you can only fit one in
User avatar
bazza_12
Top Contributor
Posts: 404
Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 7:49 pm
Location: Yorkshire, UK
Has thanked: 247 times
Been thanked: 112 times
Contact:

Re: Scart vs VGA

Unread post by bazza_12 »

Noticed there are a lot of tech youtube videos on SCART connections over the last week. blimey, I'm on trend.
The music is reversible but time is not. Turn back. Turn back
Jegriva
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:06 pm
Has thanked: 49 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Scart vs VGA

Unread post by Jegriva »

MiSTer_Kirk wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:23 am I don't think you'll find many, if any, VGA monitors that could do 15hz, or even 31hz. Most are probably 50hz minimum.
There are some old VGA LCD monitors that were able to do 15hz at their lowest resolution, but they often look terrible compared to a CRT.
I think that maybe you are mistaking vertical refresh rate (50Hz in PAL, 60Hz in NYSC, 120Hz on the new fancy HDMI 2.1 tvs), and horizontal refresh rate (15kHz on consumer tv, 24kHz on arcade monitors, 31kHz on PC cathodic displays).

Btw, there were multisync CRT that could do 15-31 or 15-24, bu they were very rare and now they are probably unicorns.
MiSTer_Kirk
Posts: 210
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:42 pm
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 46 times

Re: Scart vs VGA

Unread post by MiSTer_Kirk »

Jegriva wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 8:52 pm
MiSTer_Kirk wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:23 am I don't think you'll find many, if any, VGA monitors that could do 15hz, or even 31hz. Most are probably 50hz minimum.
There are some old VGA LCD monitors that were able to do 15hz at their lowest resolution, but they often look terrible compared to a CRT.
I think that maybe you are mistaking vertical refresh rate (50Hz in PAL, 60Hz in NYSC, 120Hz on the new fancy HDMI 2.1 tvs), and horizontal refresh rate (15kHz on consumer tv, 24kHz on arcade monitors, 31kHz on PC cathodic displays).

Btw, there were multisync CRT that could do 15-31 or 15-24, bu they were very rare and now they are probably unicorns.
I was talking about the original resolutions and refresh rates of the cores, none of my own PC VGA CRT Monitors can go as low as 15hz 320x240 (as an example), I would have to use "vga_scaler=1", or I wouldn't get a picture. So, what I was saying was that you wouldn't be able to match the same resolutions + refresh as a consumer grade CRT TV. I believe the OP wanted to know if using a VGA monitor would provide a better image, over using a CRT TV.
FoxbatStargazer
Top Contributor
Posts: 994
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:44 pm
Has thanked: 309 times
Been thanked: 228 times

Re: Scart vs VGA

Unread post by FoxbatStargazer »

31khz was the minimal standard for VGA CRTs and was the entirety of DOS, I think you'd be hard pressed to find consumer VGA CRTs that started at 50khz, just about all of them can do 320x640 for example, which is what the forced_scandoubler line is for in mister.ini. Set to 1 and you can use direct analog/bypass scaler on VGA CRT, it just doubles every scanline of the original console output, and thereby doubles the horizontal refresh from 15khz to 31khz.
User avatar
bazza_12
Top Contributor
Posts: 404
Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 7:49 pm
Location: Yorkshire, UK
Has thanked: 247 times
Been thanked: 112 times
Contact:

Re: Scart vs VGA

Unread post by bazza_12 »

I was wondering if a VGA CRT monitor would give a sharper image than a CRT TV via SCART. I think I'll stick with the CRT TV via SCART that I'm using at the moment. Thanks for all the advice :) It's a bit of a minefield..
The music is reversible but time is not. Turn back. Turn back
FoxbatStargazer
Top Contributor
Posts: 994
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:44 pm
Has thanked: 309 times
Been thanked: 228 times

Re: Scart vs VGA

Unread post by FoxbatStargazer »

The answer is almost always yes. VGA monitors can get quite sharp, especially at low resolutions; the problem is more that they might even be TOO sharp for 240p retro games. But if sharp is what you want then they will deliver.

The "minefield" is how important scanlines are to you, since you pretty much have to fake them if you want them on VGA.
Jegriva
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:06 pm
Has thanked: 49 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Scart vs VGA

Unread post by Jegriva »

MiSTer_Kirk wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 10:55 pm
Jegriva wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 8:52 pm
MiSTer_Kirk wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:23 am I don't think you'll find many, if any, VGA monitors that could do 15hz, or even 31hz. Most are probably 50hz minimum.
There are some old VGA LCD monitors that were able to do 15hz at their lowest resolution, but they often look terrible compared to a CRT.
I think that maybe you are mistaking vertical refresh rate (50Hz in PAL, 60Hz in NYSC, 120Hz on the new fancy HDMI 2.1 tvs), and horizontal refresh rate (15kHz on consumer tv, 24kHz on arcade monitors, 31kHz on PC cathodic displays).

Btw, there were multisync CRT that could do 15-31 or 15-24, bu they were very rare and now they are probably unicorns.
I was talking about the original resolutions and refresh rates of the cores, none of my own PC VGA CRT Monitors can go as low as 15hz 320x240 (as an example), I would have to use "vga_scaler=1", or I wouldn't get a picture. So, what I was saying was that you wouldn't be able to match the same resolutions + refresh as a consumer grade CRT TV. I believe the OP wanted to know if using a VGA monitor would provide a better image, over using a CRT TV.
There never was any video standard at 15hz or 31hz, NEVER. I am buffled why anyone should have the need for an experimental CRT capable of those imaginary signals.

Those number actually are exactly 1/000 of the horizontal refresh rates for consumer tv and PC monitors (15kHz and 31kHz). These are KILOhertz, and are about horizontal refresh, not vertical. Different things.

EDIT: mistyped "horizontal" for "vertical" and viceversa.
Jegriva
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:06 pm
Has thanked: 49 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Scart vs VGA

Unread post by Jegriva »

bazza_12 wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 6:16 am I was wondering if a VGA CRT monitor would give a sharper image than a CRT TV via SCART. I think I'll stick with the CRT TV via SCART that I'm using at the moment. Thanks for all the advice :) It's a bit of a minefield..
Of course the image would be sharper. Much higher resolutions (late PC CRT were usualky 1280x1024 or even 1920x1440 and 2048x1536) and the double of the vertical refresh rate than a consumer tv. The VGA analog signal was exceptionally accurate (it didn't carry audio, tho).

PC monitor were created to be stared at from 30cm for 8 hours a day. They were supposed to be sharper and more stable.

It would be obviously historically inaccurate to play console and arcade games on them (and even many microcomputer that ran at 15kHz), but to each their own.

Also, the PC monitors actually output 320x200 and 320x240 doubling to 640x400 and 640x480, so do not expect big fat scanlines.

Attached there is my setup.
Attachments
image.jpg
image.jpg (1.75 MiB) Viewed 5101 times
MiSTer_Kirk
Posts: 210
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:42 pm
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 46 times

Re: Scart vs VGA

Unread post by MiSTer_Kirk »

Jegriva wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 7:40 pm There never was any video standard at 15hz or 31hz, NEVER. I am buffled why anyone should have the need for an experimental CRT capable of those imaginary signals.

Those number actually are exactly 1/000 of the horizontal refresh rates for consumer tv and PC monitors (15kHz and 31kHz). These are KILOhertz, and are about horizontal refresh, not vertical. Different things.

EDIT: mistyped "horizontal" for "vertical" and viceversa.
I have no idea what the hell you are on about. My PC VGA CRT Monitor will NOT work on almost any of the cores that output low resolutions like a ZX Spectrum, C64, Amstrad CPC, NES, etc..... unless I use vga_scaler=1 - but then you are not getting the stock native output of the core, you are scaling it. Quite where you are going with this, I genuinely no longer care. I said my piece, now I'm going to ignore you.
User avatar
mapf
Posts: 153
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:05 pm
Has thanked: 58 times
Been thanked: 51 times

Re: Scart vs VGA

Unread post by mapf »

MiSTer_Kirk wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 8:58 pm My PC VGA CRT Monitor will NOT work on almost any of the cores that output low resolutions like a ZX Spectrum, C64, Amstrad CPC, NES, etc..... unless I use vga_scaler=1 - but then you are not getting the stock native output of the core, you are scaling it.
The setting

Code: Select all

forced_scandoubler=1
allows you to use a VGA CRT with almost all cores without the scaler. Like the name implies it doubles the 15kHz signal to 31kHz. As the change is per line and not per frame (as with the scaler) there is no lag.
Post Reply