Holy Grail Display for MiSTer?

Discussion about displays and related hardware including MiSTer filters and video settings.
elvis
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Re: Holy Grail Display for MiSTer?

Unread post by elvis »

If I didn't already have PVMs at my disposal, I would play MiSTer on a SVGA PC CRT.

These are just as sharp as PVMs, rival BVMs, can be found for a fraction of the price, and are lag and tear free on MiSTer with the line double mode.

Throw in a cheap hardware scanline generator if you like.

Here's some close up comparisons using just my phone's camera. Not the best photograph in the world, but if shows the comparison well enough. Got downvoted to hell on Imgur, which is pretty amusing.

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akeley
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Re: Holy Grail Display for MiSTer?

Unread post by akeley »

Sharpness is overrated when it comes to games and in most cases VGA monitor will lose on size & colour vibrancy to a consumer CRT TV set.

Also, nobody plays games in "macro" mode ;)
elvis
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Re: Holy Grail Display for MiSTer?

Unread post by elvis »

akeley wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:38 am Sharpness is overrated
Sharpness is subjective. I enjoy quite a lot of games on my blurry consumer CRTs, especially from the 8 bit era. Certain highly detailed 16bit titles (and newer - 2D stuff on the PS1/Saturn) I much prefer on sharper CRTs like PVMs and SVGA monitors. I certainly don't have a single display that is my favourite out of my collection of 47 CRTs. What I do have, though, is a CRT addiction.

But the point is, if you do like sharpness, there are cheaper alternatives than PVMs, at least for a short while yet.

If you don't like sharpness, even cheaper! A "street CRT" will totally fill the void, often for very cheap and/or free.
akeley wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:38 am VGA monitor will lose on size & colour vibrancy to a consumer CRT TV set.
Size, yes. Colour vibrancy, no.

Consumer CRTs, especially towards the end of the 90s, shipped with TERRIBLE default settings. Oversaturated colours and white points that were way too cool. These give the illusion of "vibrancy", but really just fool consumers into thinking the screen is better than it is when sitting on a showroom floor next to a dozen other models. The problem continues to exist today in an era of LCD and OLED screens, although good YouTube channels like HDTVTest are helping people become aware of the problem, and setting them on the right path.

SVGA CRTs especially were purchased by folks like office professionals and digital photographers, and didn't sit on showroom floors as their primary form of advertising. As a result, they shipped with competent standards like sRGB, agreed on by industry heavyweights like Adobe, Microsoft, HP, Dell and the rest. What confused a lot of TV watchers about this was that it looked "duller" than their overdriven TV sets, but in fact the colour accuracy was much higher, and things like colour crush didn't occur when colour calibration was correctly applied.

You can also choose to overdrive a VGA/SVGA monitor, blow the brightness out, and set the colour temperature far too cool if you want to simulate that "vibrant" look. Having worked in the film and VFX industries for a couple of decades now, I prefer to calibrate to recognised standards, and that goes for my consumer CRTs too. I put together a YouTube series if people want to learn more about it:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... fE2--66DjZ

Even for old video games, I find the lack of colour crushing especially to be the major benefit. Most people lose all definition in colours as quickly as the 50% saturation mark with their preferred settings, which throws away an enormous amount of detail.
akeley wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:38 amAlso, nobody plays games in "macro" mode ;)
Of course not. But it is a fun way to see what's going on right down at the phosphor level. ;)
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Re: Holy Grail Display for MiSTer?

Unread post by redsteakraw »

I would say a high res VGA monitor for CRT or a 1440p display as that has the most perfect integer scales from the various cores including 480p but said monitor needs to support the 4x3 resolution input. Some gaming monitors can and will do this pretty good.
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akeley
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Re: Holy Grail Display for MiSTer?

Unread post by akeley »

elvis wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:11 pm Sharpness is subjective.
To an extent. It's a well known fact that the lack of extreme sharpness in TVs was an early substitute for antialiasing in games and that it worked really well. What's subjective is how people perceive it nowadays, and that's also the reason why anybody is free to choose their preference. But it does help to remember that modern perception is coloured by nearly two decades of the "emulator look" being a de facto standard, vs great difficulty of comparing it against the original one, which gives CRTs a bad rep. Add to that the thicc-scanline fetishizm and things can really get blown out of proportion.
elvis wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:11 pm Size, yes. Colour vibrancy, no.

Consumer CRTs, especially towards the end of the 90s, shipped with TERRIBLE default settings. Oversaturated colours and white points that were way too cool. These give the illusion of "vibrancy", but really just fool consumers into thinking the screen is better than it is when sitting on a showroom floor next to a dozen other models. The problem continues to exist today in an era of LCD and OLED screens, although good YouTube channels like HDTVTest are helping people become aware of the problem, and setting them on the right path.

SVGA CRTs especially were purchased by folks like office professionals and digital photographers, and didn't sit on showroom floors as their primary form of advertising. As a result, they shipped with competent standards like sRGB, agreed on by industry heavyweights like Adobe, Microsoft, HP, Dell and the rest. What confused a lot of TV watchers about this was that it looked "duller" than their overdriven TV sets, but in fact the colour accuracy was much higher, and things like colour crush didn't occur when colour calibration was correctly applied.
You are describing extremes. I don't think anybody even mildly interested in this subject would stick with the showroom settings of a CRT set or go for the overblown ones, though sometimes it's fun to mess around this way (although some sets won't let you do that in RGB mode). Anyway, it only takes few minutes with 240p suite, or certain games, to dial it all down to more reasonable levels which will be fine for 95% of gamers.

On the flipside, the pro-level VGA monitors are in the la-la land price territory these days, thus defeating your original point. And the mid-range ones, of which I have a few, are quite dull indeed, and it's not an "illusion". There's nothing you can do to bring my SyncMaster 793df to the vibrancy levels of the rather decent Trinitron it sits alongside. As for the preference, we are now entering subjectivity zone, for sure this time, but I'm pretty sure that most of people would choose the latter look, simply because that's a natural instinct. And as I said earlier, more vibrant does not equal terribly distorted with lack of detail. At least not the lack of detail you can discern without use of macro photography or sitting with your nose 5 cm from the screen, which is exactly what I was referring to in the previous post ;)

Overall, obviously anybody can choose whatever method of displaying they wish, but the reason I sometimes make these posts is to point out that a) there is a lot of modern bias involved in this subject b) that in turn often creates a very distorted picture of this hobby (pun not intended) to beginners. While I recognise a lot of good work the likes of RetroRGB Bob or Fudoh have done, their opinions have also influenced the sometimes hyper-elitist take on CRT usage encountered in some circles (r/crtgaming springs to mind), where many people will considered you clueless if you're using composite and postulate that PVM-way is the only true way. Sufice to say this angle is not helping to convince normal folks to try out a CRT.

So, the bottom line is that a "street level" consumer CRT set - assuming you find/buy one from the higher range, in a decent nick - should be sufficent for anybody who wants to enjoy this (some will say the best) way of displaying retro games. It's the reason I got rid of my PVM when prices went wild, because my Trinitrons are simply good enough, if not better, for those like me who don't like too-pronounced scalines and pixel separation (because logically, it's not how people draw art either).

Of course, all the best to those who have the means, and space, to take this hobby to the extremes. But, it's 2021, the scalpers have wised up to this game long time ago and now even the silliest 9" PVM can cost you heaps of cash, so it's worth mentioning that the other methods can be just as good. And once you actually start playing games, instead of agonising about rather minuscule details (been there, done that), the hype factor tends to fade away anyway.
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Re: Holy Grail Display for MiSTer?

Unread post by elvis »

akeley wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:07 pm Add to that the thicc-scanline fetishizm and things can really get blown out of proportion.
akeley wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:07 pm So, the bottom line is that a "street level" consumer CRT set - assuming you find/buy one from the higher range, in a decent nick - should be sufficent for anybody
I don't really agree with anything you've said above, but don't have the patience to delve into the tedium of line by line rebuttals. The two quoted lines above, however, stick out for me the most. Displays are very much subjective. There's no right or wrong way to do things. There's nothing that "should be" sufficient for anyone if they don't subjectively enjoy it - these are all wants and not needs. Even within my own collection I jump between different displays, choosing razor sharp visuals with thick scanlines sometimes, and other times loving my low end consumer sets and their wonderful characteristics. This changes game by game, day by day, and I love revisiting old favourites in new ways too.

My on-topic point above was that a modern SVGA monitor (even the non-"Pro" models, because even at the low end they were all designed with a DPI for sharp, high resolution text reading) right here and right now gives PVM-esque quality for a fraction of the price, and works well with MiSTer thanks to its inherent ability to line-double out of the box, not requiring devices like OSSCs or RetroTinks that real consoles require. Yes, SVGA monitors are on the price rise. Everything "retro" is because "supply and demand". But I can still find them in my area, at least, for about 1/4 the price on average compared to a PVM. If you're after a sharp CRT, that's a great option. If you don't like sharp CRTs, cool. I won't enforce my choices upon you.

The "free street CRTs" in my area have all dried up, which is sad. Even poor quality consumer CRTs are now appearing in various online marketplaces with $100 price tags where I live (often MORE expensive than SVGA monitors, mostly due to awareness and hype), which of course is going to be different for anyone reading this in some other place in the world. If you do happen to live in a part of the world where they still exist, and you still subjectively love that lo-fi look, that's a spectacular option. For most of these devices lag is non existent, and we now have options to get S-video and even CVBS out of MiSTer which means you can safely hook up even the lowest spec of devices without needing to open them up and perform RGB mods.

Now, I'll be gobsmacked if anyone can take issue with any of what's said here. The best thing about MiSTer, IMHO, is choice. There are just so many ways you can connect this thing, to so many different displays. I'll be purchasing a couple more MiSTers later this year to replace the internals of several of my arcade machines now that CPS2 has arrived. But that's in addition to my razor sharp SVGA monitors, sharp-but-moderate PVMs, and "lo-fi" consumer CRTs, which are all scattered around my gaming area. There is no "one true way" to play.
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Re: Holy Grail Display for MiSTer?

Unread post by akeley »

elvis wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:50 am

Displays are very much subjective. There's no right or wrong way to do things. There's nothing that "should be" sufficient for anyone if they don't subjectively enjoy it - these are all wants and not needs.

The problem with discussing subjectivity is that pushed far enough it becomes meaningless. Nevertheless, I thought that the gist of my post should be clear enough anyway, but one would need to take my post as a whole, not just cherrypick quotes. Therefore, your reply which overall is implying I'm trying to dictate something is a little bit disingenious. There are enough objectivity clauses in my post (eg "Of course, all the best to those who have the means, and space, to take this hobby to the extremes"), plus the general context, to refute such implication.

To reiterate, my general point was that the quality of the experience offered by the decent consumer sets should be enough for majority of people. The reason for it is that they offer the best balance of size, colour vibrancy, price, and yes - sharpness. You might not even realize it, but referring to them you use terms such as "lo-fi" or "blurry", which to somebody new to the hobby who's deciding on a display method, will paint an obvioulsy flawed picture. In reality, a decent consumer set offers a mind-blowing quality already, with enough sharpness to boot. The difference between one and a PVM really is nowhere near as much as people paint it, plus there's the fact that by offering a more uniform image they might be even considered better for retro games.

And, again, people who choose to pursue the extremes are absolutely free to do so. They exist in every hobby. The problem appears when their opinions become so dominant that they skew the general picture, and that's what has happened in ours, a hobby which is already peculiar in the respect that most newcomers do not have a frame of reference, and also have been exposed to nearly 2 decades of emus on TFTs, screenshots from Mobygames, and the like.

An average VGA monitor is not really a substitute for PVM, even an "esque' one. And that was pretty much the gist of my first brief reply. I'm not going to go into detail again, since we're already in a "repeting myself zone", and obviously your mind is made up, so it would be rather pointless. That's not to say people shouldn't use them at all, but that it's worth checking out other options first, instead of chasing that flawed PVM ideal. If you really live in an area where obtaining a consumer CRT set is a problem (I do agree that these exist) then sure, go for it. But it doesn't hurt to set up an search alert on your local classifieds site anyway.

Another thing I can agree with you about is that these arguments are rather tedious, so I usually stop after 1-2 replies, treating it all more as a PSA - presenting a point of view alternative from the status quo to some passers by. So, instead of carrying on, here's a link to a few scr$ from some of my TVs. They look better live, due to the camera (and my photo skill) limitations, but it's just a sample of what can be achieved by using a so-called "lo-fi" TV.

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