Advice for HDMI Users

Discussion about displays and related hardware including MiSTer filters and video settings.
hitm4n
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Re: Advice for HDMI Users

Unread post by hitm4n »

Yay. Not quite as neat as the Lindy adapter, but i found this. £4.99 with free delivery.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01IKQO92K/

Ordered one and fingers crossed.
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Re: Advice for HDMI Users

Unread post by mapf »

This looks like the same cheap adapter, but is currently unavailable on amazon.co.uk. https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07X3MJCX5
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Re: Advice for HDMI Users

Unread post by hitm4n »

hitm4n wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 1:08 pm Yay. Not quite as neat as the Lindy adapter, but i found this. £4.99 with free delivery.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01IKQO92K/
Ordered one and fingers crossed.
Happy to confirm, this cable worked great. Nice and cheap, removes CEC. All connected up, MiSTer is turned off and soundbar on TV is working fine.
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Re: Advice for HDMI Users

Unread post by pacoarcade »

keith.f.kelly wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:13 pm So, if you're using HDMI at all, it's probably just a really good idea to get one of these little booster devices and install it, to electrically isolate things. And if you're putting MiSTer inside of a larger case of some kind, it's probably an even better idea to install one of these inside of the case, so that the HDMI port exposed on the outside of the case is already electrically isolated.
Thank you for the heads up. So the ideal solution would be to use the buffer and pin 13 (CEC) removal?

Is the HDMI buffer recommended if you use a HDMI to VGA converter? or this converter acts as a buffer so it's not needed?
dakbluemonkey
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Re: Advice for HDMI Users

Unread post by dakbluemonkey »

I've been having the CEC issue with my Sony Bravia TV after plugging in the DE10.

I got one of those Lindy CECless adaptors and it didn't fix the issue... I bought it from amazon in December... It turns out the CEC pin13 was still connected! Useless!

I cut the pin out by hand, and it solved the problem immediately... I documented the process on twitter...

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Zesty
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Re: Advice for HDMI Users

Unread post by Zesty »

I've been having similar issues with my MiSTer and stumbled across this thread. Please tell me if this is a fair summary of what we know so far...
  • Problem 1: As soon as you connect the DE10-Nano to your AV setup it can disrupt CEC-related features in every connected device, or lead to several other issues listed in the first post.

  • Cause: The DE10-Nano's HDMI output is wired incorrectly. At the very least, pin 13 is completely wrong. This is not caused by (and cannot be fixed by) any current MiSTer project code or hardware.

  • Solution: Place some sort of CEC-free HDMI passthrough device between the MiSTer and your other devices to prevent contact with the faulty pin. This can be done using an adapter like the Lindy, a modified cable, or any other HDMI pass-through device that has pin 13 disconnected. This will prevent the DE10 from disrupting the CEC functions of other devices, and possibly prevent most of the other issues as well. Since CEC is optional (and MiSTer doesn't use it anyway) it can be safely disconnected.
Unfortunately...
  • Problem 2: Some MiSTer users may experience issues with HDMI ARC/eARC even after solving the pin 13 issue.

  • Cause: Unknown. Possibly more hardware issues with the DE-10's HDMI output.

  • Solution: Possibly solved by disconnecting pin 15 (serial clock for DDC) in the same manner as pin 13.
So, if I've got all that right, it seems like users who rely on HDMI ARC/eARC/CEC might benefit from a cable or passthrough device that disconnects several pins. The question is: which pins? Or would it be better to do some sort of internal mod that fixes or disconnects the faulty pins at the source?

Also, if we're disconnecting the DDC clock pin (15), should we also disconnect the DDC serial data pin (16) or is it fine to have one without the other? Does MiSTer use any DDC features like EDID?
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Re: Advice for HDMI Users

Unread post by hitm4n »

To the best of my knowledge, having overcome this issue myself with an ARC soundbar (uses CEC)...
Zesty wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:42 pmProblem 1: As soon as you connect the DE10-Nano to your AV setup it can disrupt CEC-related features in every connected device, or lead to several other issues listed in the first post.
Doesn't affect all users with AV equipment and soundbars. Seems common on Sony TVs, Sony Bravias (which i have) seem to not want to see a soundbar IF the MiSTer is connected. Even if its turned off (read back and see posts about pin 13 dropping voltage to zero when TV expects 5v or something like that).
The DE10-Nano's HDMI output is wired incorrectly. At the very least, pin 13 is completely wrong. This is not caused by (and cannot be fixed by) any current MiSTer project code or hardware.
Its not wired incorrectly, its just not wired to absolute standards. And indeed, someone pointed out that this pin shouldn't even be wired at all. The schematics have shown "DNC" (Do Not Connect) on the PCB.
Solution: Place some sort of CEC-free HDMI passthrough device between the MiSTer and your other devices to prevent contact with the faulty pin. This can be done using an adapter like the Lindy, a modified cable, or any other HDMI pass-through device that has pin 13 disconnected. This will prevent the DE10 from disrupting the CEC functions of other devices, and possibly prevent most of the other issues as well. Since CEC is optional (and MiSTer doesn't use it anyway) it can be safely disconnected.
Safe to disable pin13. The cable i bought (look at my post a few up), worked beautifully. Soundbar works a treat now, zero issues and not a single issue with the MiSTer output using it.
Unfortunately...
Problem 2: Some MiSTer users may experience issues with HDMI ARC/eARC even after solving the pin 13 issue.
I'm not sure this is true. Everyone i've seen post who has had this issue has resolved it with the pin13 fix. The only ones that didn't bought a Lindy adapter that still had pin13 connected. These were faulty stock from Amazon i believe. My cable is brilliant. Works and was cheaper.
Cause: Unknown. Possibly more hardware issues with the DE-10's HDMI output.
Again, not sure this is true. I haven't read about other HDMI issues related to pin13 and i read a lot of forums and posts (not just here) when trying to figure this out for myself. Even Sony forums and AV forums as i couldn't believe it was coming from the MiSTer. My problem was when i set up my MiSTer i did a big rewire of all things HDMI and introduced a new PC into the mix as well. So it was hard to pinpoint why the damn soundbar suddenly stopped working. At one point i thought with all the moving around i'd actually broken my soundbar.
Solution: Possibly solved by disconnecting pin 15 (serial clock for DDC) in the same manner as pin 13.
This might be something you need to do, but i certainly didn't and i would try the cable i bought first as its your most likely fix. Pin15 fixes may be for very old HDMI cables, or maybe even very very new ones? I don't know enough about pin15 as pin13 was the route i went with and which worked for me.
So, if I've got all that right, it seems like users who rely on HDMI ARC/eARC/CEC might benefit from a cable or passthrough device that disconnects several pins. The question is: which pins? Or would it be better to do some sort of internal mod that fixes or disconnects the faulty pins at the source?
Someone did scrape the line away on their MiSTer PCB. That will work too, but its a pretty scary and untidy solution.
Also, if we're disconnecting the DDC clock pin (15), should we also disconnect the DDC serial data pin (16) or is it fine to have one without the other? Does MiSTer use any DDC features like EDID?
Now this i don't know. Totally beyond me, but i hope this info helps.
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Zesty
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Re: Advice for HDMI Users

Unread post by Zesty »

I appreciate the info. I'm also using a soundbar and a Bravia TV, so I'll definitely pick up one of the adapters.

For the pin 15 stuff, I was talking about the posts on page 2 where OP found additional HDMI issues that were solved by taping over pin 15. They start here:
keith.f.kelly wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:37 am NEW INFO: There is STILL something electrically weird going on with MiSTer's HDMI port. Even using the CEC-less cable and the CableMatters booster, if the MiSTer is plugged into my new 4K Samsung Q90T television, then the TV is unable to correctly detect that it is connected to an eARC AV receiver on a different input. Something about the MiSTer electrically messes with the eARC communication mechanism; possible some other pin that is only used for eARC?
Hopefully someone who knows more about the DDC stuff is able to weigh in so we can figure that part out. It's good that the existing CEC adapters seem to solve 99% of the problems people have observed, but it also wouldn't be too hard to make a custom HDMI coupler or cable if we need to.
Chancer
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Re: Advice for HDMI Users

Unread post by Chancer »

Just thought I'd add my experience with this issue in case it helps anyone.

I recently moved house and after setting up my consoles and TV / AV receiver I was having all sorts of ARC problems, no sound being passed back to the receiver etc. After much testing, fumbling with TV and device settings I realised it was the MiSTer causing issues whenever it was connected to the receiver.

I couldn't figure out why this was suddenly an issue when it's used to work perfectly at my old house? Anyway, I eventually found my way to this thread and reading through the posts I realised something that had changed from my last setup. I was now running my MiSTer HDMI directly into the AV receiver, whereas previously out was going through an HDMI switcher first.

I just added the HDMI switcher back into the setup, and just like that the whole thing works great as before. No more ARC issues. Based on this thread, I'm guessing the switcher strips out CEC from the cable.

This is the switcher I'm using in case this is helpful for anyone:

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/dp/B075R2DFJ1/
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Re: Advice for HDMI Users

Unread post by keith.f.kelly »

Just circling back on this, since folks seem to have gotten lost in the details I posted months ago:

You have to disconnect BOTH pins 13 (via the CEC-less cable I recommended earlier) AND pin 15 (via a microscopic piece of masking tape applied to the cable end) to resolve all known issues. Lifting pin 13 alone is not sufficient.

I've thoroughly searched the interwebz, but nobody seems to make an HDMI adapter or cable that lifts BOTH pins. If someone out there can do that, or come up with a provably safe and easy mod to the DE-10 Nano itself to disconnect both pins, you'll be my hero, because that tiny piece of masking tape over pin 15 is a pretty ghetto solution.
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Re: Advice for HDMI Users

Unread post by keith.f.kelly »

Well, it turns out there's at least one more HDMI pin that most be lifted to cure all compatibility issues with other equipment. I brought my MiSTer along to my parents' place and connected it to their TV via HDMI, and even with pins 13 and 15 lifted, having the MiSTer hooked up prevents their Sony BluRay player from powering on! I have to unplug the MiSTer's HDMI port from the TV to get their BluRay player to work at all. I suspect it's due to one of the other pins I cited in my earlier posts, but I don't have my usual tools and stuff with me here to identify which one is to blame.
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Re: Advice for HDMI Users

Unread post by Yim »

I’m not sure if this is the same problem, but I have more HDMI devices than ports on my TV, so I’m using a switch box. The problem is that if the MiSTer is connected to the box none of the other inputs will give a picture unless the MiSTer is turned on. I’ve tried two different switch boxes, same problem with both. Has anyone else had this problem, and if so were you able to fix it with a CEC-less adapter? Or any other method?

If I plug the MiSTer directly into the TV I have no problem, but I’m trying to get all my gadgets on the switcher so my family don’t have to fiddle with it for the devices they use.
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Re: Advice for HDMI Users

Unread post by Yim »

Further to the above, I had a look at the inside of my hdmi switchbox:

s3m4Z8S.jpg
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It’s a Simplecom CM340 mechanical switch, and although the list price on the page I’ve linked to is fifty Australian dollars I paid less than half of that. I bought it when my first switch box, a digital one, didn’t work properly with the MiSTer. I thought being a mechanical switch it would break all the connections of the inputs not in use and so stop any interference. And it almost does! There are twelve three pin switches per input, each going to one of the pins of the HDMI socket as I’ve marked in the image. Five of the pins all join to a common ground, pin 14 doesn’t connect to anything so far as I can tell, and all the pin 18s are joined together (even the one second from the top that doesn’t look like it’s connected - I checked it with my multimeter). If an input is set to on, then the output socket (top of image) is connected to it. If it’s off, then the signal is bypassed to the next input (via the vertical trace lines running between switch banks).

My problem I think is due to the common +5v line (pin 18). I tried plugging in the just the MiSTer to the switch box without turning it on, and I found I was getting continuity between +5v and ground. I don’t know much about electronics but that doesn’t seem right. Not sure if all de10s do this or if there’s a problem with mine. Anyways, I cut the trace for pin 18 leading to input 1 (bottom of image). This reversed my problem: instead of only getting a picture on other inputs when the MiSTer is on, I only get a picture from the MiSTer when something else is on. I think what’s happening is my TV is using the +5v pin to identify whether there’s a signal or not. Because the de10 connects +5v to ground when it’s off, it was draining the signal from the other devices making the TV think they were off. Now that I’ve cut the trace it isn’t doing that anymore, but it needs a signal from another input to tell the TV there’s something running for the MiSTer to display.

My plan now is to cut the trace leading to the switch pin marked 13 in the image, and the one leading away from the pin to its left. That will disconnect CEC, which I don’t need anyway. Then I can run wires from either side of where I’ve cut the +5v trace to those pins, and it will only connect if I’ve selected the MiSTer input. I’m not confident of my ability to solder to the tiny HDMI socket pins without creating shorts, so I’ll probably strip some coating from the trace and do it there.
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Re: Advice for HDMI Users

Unread post by Yim »

OGJhmGk.jpg
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I modified my switchbox, and now I can connect my MiSTer to it without causing any troubles for the other inputs. It looks like a terrible bodge, but only because it is. I should have cut the wire shorter, at least. Anyways, now my MiSTer has all hdmi connections severed except for the grounds when I don’t have it selected on the box. When I do select it, CEC is still disconnected because of the traces I cut.

Is it normal that my MiSTer connects the hdmi ground and 5v pins when it’s turned off? Doesn’t seem right.
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Re: Advice for HDMI Users

Unread post by bry111 »

Maybe a diode on pin 18 would help? Reminds me of https://www.retrorgb.com/cheap-fix-for- ... tters.html although it's not the same problem at all.
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Re: Advice for HDMI Users

Unread post by jlancaster86 »

Has anybody tried using one of these breakout boards? Assuming the HDMI signal passes through correctly, it would be a lot easier to cut traces on one of these than trying to block/remove pins on an HDMI cable.
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Re: Advice for HDMI Users

Unread post by jlancaster86 »

jlancaster86 wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:16 am Has anybody tried using one of these breakout boards? Assuming the HDMI signal passes through correctly, it would be a lot easier to cut traces on one of these than trying to block/remove pins on an HDMI cable.
I purchased a few of those HDMI breakout boards from AliExpress, and I can confirm they do work correctly. I'd recommend using one of those over hacking up a cable.
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Re: Advice for HDMI Users

Unread post by Insert Disk Two »

Can this result in killing the HDMI port on TV? Because it just happened to me.
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Re: Advice for HDMI Users

Unread post by keith.f.kelly »

jlancaster86 wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:16 am Has anybody tried using one of these breakout boards? Assuming the HDMI signal passes through correctly, it would be a lot easier to cut traces on one of these than trying to block/remove pins on an HDMI cable.
Whoa! That's exactly the kind of solution I've been looking for!

Any idea if/where I could get a nice little plastic or 3D-printed case to enclose the PCB?
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jlancaster86
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Re: Advice for HDMI Users

Unread post by jlancaster86 »

keith.f.kelly wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 6:49 pm Any idea if/where I could get a nice little plastic or 3D-printed case to enclose the PCB?
No idea, sorry. But it couldn't be hard for somebody with the knowhow to whip something up.

Alternatively, some standoffs and two pieces of plastic would do the job.
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Re: Advice for HDMI Users

Unread post by keith.f.kelly »

I bought a small bag of those HDMI M-to-F breakout test boards from AliExpress. They arrived yesterday. I'll be using them to finally conclusively determine which HDMI pins really need to be lifted to avoid all CEC, ARC, and eARC problems, and to maybe work with someone in the community who's handy enough with 3D modeling/printing to design and make little enclosures for these boards for anyone who wants to make a proper outboard inline multi-HDMI-pin-lifter for use with MiSTer.

The good news is these breakout boards have all pins connected by default, so to lift specific pins, all you have to do is scratch across the traces on the PCB for the pins you want to lift. So no soldering required, and would thus be an easy DIY project for anyone without much in the way of electronics skills. Would be pretty easy to manually produce batches of these by hand by anyone with a fine-point sharp metal scraper and a 3D printer.
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Re: Advice for HDMI Users

Unread post by drgruney »

keith.f.kelly wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:18 pm The good news is these breakout boards have all pins connected by default, so to lift specific pins, all you have to do is scratch across the traces on the PCB for the pins you want to lift. So no soldering required, and would thus be an easy DIY project for anyone without much in the way of electronics skills. Would be pretty easy to manually produce batches of these by hand by anyone with a fine-point sharp metal scraper and a 3D printer.
For the sake of testing I would get two adapters with complete headers, and set up short jumpers. That way you can permutate without trashing any boards.
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Re: Advice for HDMI Users

Unread post by keith.f.kelly »

drgruney wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:52 pm For the sake of testing I would get two adapters with complete headers, and set up short jumpers. That way you can permutate without trashing any boards.
I don't need to test very many permutations, and I'm handy enough with a soldering iron to reconnect any traces I've scratched out if it comes to that while I'm experimenting. But thanks for the suggestion :)
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Re: Advice for HDMI Users

Unread post by jlancaster86 »

keith.f.kelly wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:18 pm I bought a small bag of those HDMI M-to-F breakout test boards from AliExpress. They arrived yesterday. I'll be using them to finally conclusively determine which HDMI pins really need to be lifted to avoid all CEC, ARC, and eARC problems, and to maybe work with someone in the community who's handy enough with 3D modeling/printing to design and make little enclosures for these boards for anyone who wants to make a proper outboard inline multi-HDMI-pin-lifter for use with MiSTer.

The good news is these breakout boards have all pins connected by default, so to lift specific pins, all you have to do is scratch across the traces on the PCB for the pins you want to lift. So no soldering required, and would thus be an easy DIY project for anyone without much in the way of electronics skills. Would be pretty easy to manually produce batches of these by hand by anyone with a fine-point sharp metal scraper and a 3D printer.
I cut the trace to pin 13 successfully, but I haven't tried cutting pin 14.

Simply cutting pin 18 (5 V) will probably break HDMI (it did for me). Adding a diode inline would likely do the trick, but i haven't tried it.
drgruney wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:52 pm For the sake of testing I would get two adapters with complete headers, and set up short jumpers. That way you can permutate without trashing any boards.
With or without the headers, those are just probe points, not jumpers (one per pin). That would be nice, though.
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Re: Advice for HDMI Users

Unread post by keith.f.kelly »

Cutting the trace for pin 16 breaks video completely.

Cutting the traces for only pins 13 and 15 appears to work great.

Someone in Discord is suggesting I try to cut the trace for only pin 17. I'll try that next.
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Re: Advice for HDMI Users

Unread post by jlancaster86 »

Pin 17 appears to be the ground for pins 13–16. If cutting pin 16 breaks video, then I expect cutting pin 17 would do the same.
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Re: Advice for HDMI Users

Unread post by keith.f.kelly »

jlancaster86 wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 5:40 am Pin 17 appears to be the ground for pins 13–16. If cutting pin 16 breaks video, then I expect cutting pin 17 would do the same.
It does, as you suspected.
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Re: Advice for HDMI Users

Unread post by keith.f.kelly »

keith.f.kelly wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 4:20 am Cutting the traces for only pins 13 and 15 appears to work great.
Actually, cutting pin 15 solves some problems but creates others. Cutting it causes eARC negotiation between my VIZIO TV and my ThenAudio SHARC to intermittently fail. So I'm not sure I'd recommend that folks cut/lift pin 15 just yet.

This issue is being discussed in some detail -- specifically about that ESD chip -- right now in Discord. If the folks there manage to figure anything out, I'll report back here.
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Re: Advice for HDMI Users

Unread post by Chris23235 »

I use a cheap HDMI Switch that is powered over a USB cable and have no problems with other equipment on the MiSTer. The other devices are even detected when turned on and the adapter switches to the corresponding input automatically. The switch works without the USB power but then takes a little bit longer to change the input. The switch has a button to cycle all 3 inputs and the all work fine at the same time.
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Re: Advice for HDMI Users

Unread post by drgruney »

jlancaster86 wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 2:49 am With or without the headers, those are just probe points, not jumpers (one per pin). That would be nice, though.
That's why you get two adapters. So you can jump from one to the other. Pulling one line would functionally be like cutting a trace on a single adapter.
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