RTG support (update: shipped!)

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uigiflip
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Re: Sponsoring RTG support

Unread post by uigiflip »

found deluxe paint v crashes when try to open in a rtg mode also iv and 5.2
MiSTer Ultimate, MiSTer Ultimate LL Cool Joy version, Replay Vidor version, Replay 2, Real Amiga's 500, 500 plus, a1200 and cd32.
schroediman
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Re: Sponsoring RTG support

Unread post by schroediman »

Wow. That's really great for an initial test build :-).
PerfectPaint works (as long as I don't try to load a jpeg) and FinalWriter seems ok, too.
At least in 800x600 8bit. I'll play with it a bit more during the next days.
Is it possible to use non 4x3 resolutions, too ? Linke 1920x1080 ?
Thanks !
kolla
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Re: Sponsoring RTG support

Unread post by kolla »

uigiflip wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:57 pm found deluxe paint v crashes when try to open in a rtg mode also iv and 5.2
This is quite normal - DPaint5 predates P96 and CGfX3, was put together in a hurry and is quite buggy all over. DPaint4.6 on AGA is the most rock solid combination.

It would be amazing if Electronic Arts still had sources for DPaintV and could make them available, so proper RTG support could be fixed.
kolla
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Re: Sponsoring RTG support

Unread post by kolla »

robinsonb5 wrote: I think the concern here isn't about "purity" as such, more that there are already situations where input responsiveness (which is one of the Amiga's defining characteristics) is slightly compromised - such as during disk access.
I don't imagine it will be an insurmountable problem, but certainly something to keep in mind as more facilities are handed off to the ARM.
My “concern” (not really) is that as more and more is handed off to the ARM... why not just go all the way, and run FS-UAE on the ARM? That would give RTG, fast CPU, fast I/O etc that people want, right?
rhester72
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Re: Sponsoring RTG support

Unread post by rhester72 »

kolla wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:38 pm
robinsonb5 wrote: I think the concern here isn't about "purity" as such, more that there are already situations where input responsiveness (which is one of the Amiga's defining characteristics) is slightly compromised - such as during disk access.
I don't imagine it will be an insurmountable problem, but certainly something to keep in mind as more facilities are handed off to the ARM.
My “concern” (not really) is that as more and more is handed off to the ARM... why not just go all the way, and run FS-UAE on the ARM? That would give RTG, fast CPU, fast I/O etc that people want, right?
Oh dear word no. The ARM side is nowhere near fast enough to provide satisfaction. It MIGHT be enough for the 020 core itself, but certainly not for the custom chipset or beyond. It wouldn't even handle AGA.
kolla
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Re: Sponsoring RTG support

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rhester72 wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:03 am Oh dear word no. The ARM side is nowhere near fast enough to provide satisfaction.
Really, 800MHz Cortex-A9 is not that much different than the 900MHz Cortex-A7 in Raspberry Pi 2, right?
It MIGHT be enough for the 020 core itself
There is no "core" when we speak of software emulation of a CPU, it's a matter of translating 68k instructions to ARM instructions. Since the beginning of MiSTer, there has been talks about replacing the CPU core on the FPGA with software emulation on the ARM, so called "hybrid emulation" - are you saying this is not worth it? And if so, based on what experience?
but certainly not for the custom chipset or beyond. It wouldn't even handle AGA.
But the custom chipset and AGA is not the topic here - like I wrote earlier, the ENTIRE POINT of using FPGA in the first place, is to put the chipset there, but once you go RTG (P96), RTA (AHI), fastest possible I/O etc. you are no longer using the chipset, so why do anything on the FPGA? You could run FS-UAE for the Workbench/productivity experience, and launch games (or legacy programs) that require the chipset on the FPGA from there.
bbond007
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Re: Sponsoring RTG support

Unread post by bbond007 »

limi wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:49 am Grabulosaure posted a test build with RTG support:

Minimig with RTG support : http://temlib.org/pub/mister/minimig/

Installation procedure : https://www.fpgaarcade.com/kb/how-to-se ... 6-drivers/ Replace "replay" with "minimig".
Thanks!

I really wanted to try this with ShapeShifter (Mac/Mac II emulator) and I'm not disappointed. I put together a 10 minute video showing the following:
  • My ShapeShifter config 00:10
  • Version of Mac OS 00:55
  • Speedometer 4.02 01:10
  • Comparison vs MAC LC III 02:35
  • AfterDark Toasters 02:52
  • Photoshop 4.0 03:26
  • Sim City 2000 05:30
  • Price of Persia 06:40
  • Sword of Sodan 07:35
The RTG makes the 8bit color mode very usable! --> https://youtu.be/Tg9epXn9CQs
rhester72 wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:03 am Oh dear word no. The ARM side is nowhere near fast enough to provide satisfaction.
I wish people would stop propagating this nonsense about the HPS ARM being so underpowered...

The HPS runs Basilisk II (Mac II emulator) at Quadra (68040) performance levels with JIT disabled...
kolla wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:34 am Really, 800MHz Cortex-A9 is not that much different than the 900MHz Cortex-A7 in Raspberry Pi 2, right?
It has less cores, however, most of the other emulators I have used on the HPS don't really take advantage of multiple threads...

I suspect it would be very fast for stuff that is compatible with JIT and RTG - faster than 060.

Anyway, very much thanks to Grabulosaure and whoever else is involved in this significant milestone for the Minimig core on MiSTer!
rhester72
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Re: Sponsoring RTG support

Unread post by rhester72 »

kolla wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:34 am
rhester72 wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:03 am Oh dear word no. The ARM side is nowhere near fast enough to provide satisfaction.
Really, 800MHz Cortex-A9 is not that much different than the 900MHz Cortex-A7 in Raspberry Pi 2, right?
The Pi 2 can't do it, either. A Pi 4 is nice, a 3B+ is adequate, anything less isn't getting it done.
kolla wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:34 am
It MIGHT be enough for the 020 core itself
There is no "core" when we speak of software emulation of a CPU, it's a matter of translating 68k instructions to ARM instructions. Since the beginning of MiSTer, there has been talks about replacing the CPU core on the FPGA with software emulation on the ARM, so called "hybrid emulation" - are you saying this is not worth it? And if so, based on what experience?
Sorry, we've been calling CPU emulation modules 'cores' LONG before FPGA existed. LOL Same term, different meaning. I was referring to the emulation components of the 68K only. I'm not saying it's not worth it, I'm saying it's downright impossible the way you envision it. See below.
kolla wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:34 am
but certainly not for the custom chipset or beyond. It wouldn't even handle AGA.
But the custom chipset and AGA is not the topic here - like I wrote earlier, the ENTIRE POINT of using FPGA in the first place, is to put the chipset there, but once you go RTG (P96), RTA (AHI), fastest possible I/O etc. you are no longer using the chipset, so why do anything on the FPGA? You could run FS-UAE for the Workbench/productivity experience, and launch games (or legacy programs) that require the chipset on the FPGA from there.
Of *course* the custom chipset is the topic, you just don't care about it. :) Unfortunately, even very base-level AmigaDOS (without Workbench) cares *VERY VERY* much about it, and quite literally can't do without it.

If what you're envisioning is an 'Amiga' without a custom chipset at all, just a UAE-like framebuffer on P96 (uaegfx) strapped to an AHI thunking layer for sound and an '020 CPU in ARM, you're not talking about an Amiga anymore, you're talking about something more of a DraCo. I'm confident it would run the 3 or so apps that ever existed for it quite nicely if someone wanted to invest the thousands of man-hours in creating such utterly purposeless emulation. :)

And because the custom chipset _is_ a requirement, even if you don't "want" it...you're right back where you started. You're not going to get blazing 68K performance from the ARM side, and you're still stuck with all the 'legacy' design on the FPGA side, so...you don't really get anything.

Then, of course, there's always the question of where the fast RAM lives. It'd make sense to put it on the ARM side, of course - that way the CPU and P96 can get at it readily, so you're golden, right? Oh, wait...P96 needs access to chip RAM to mirror Workbench, so now we have to port all the chip data over to the 68K side in real time for that, and at that point you're stressing the interconnect between the two sides of the DE10 to the point of breaking.

It's a nice fantasy. I cannot see a way of it working in any meaningful way in reality, nor can I see the benefit. Run WinUAE on a processor made in the last 10 years and it will smoke anything you will EVER hope to build on the DE10 Nano, and it's here and available right now.
kolla
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Re: Sponsoring RTG support

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You seem confused about what’s being discussed here, but that’s ok.... shoo, back to windows :)
rhester72
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Re: Sponsoring RTG support

Unread post by rhester72 »

No, I understand it quite perfectly, but I'm not quite so convinced you do. *laughs*

This reminds me very much of the folks on Reddit who seem prepared to start offering a sizable bounty to get VLC ported to the DE10 because...well, because. It's utterly, completely pointless nonsense as anything other than an intellectual exercise to prove you can do it, because there's a dozen better, *cheaper* ways to do it right to hand in most tinkerer's workshops already. I don't accept the "all-in-one" argument, either, any more so than I'd find value in a vacuum cleaner that could also make waffles. Just because you *can* do a thing doesn't mean you _should_.
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Re: Sponsoring RTG support

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a waffle making vacuum cleaner you say..... [homer icon]
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kolla
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Re: Sponsoring RTG support

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Well, I would love to learn how AmigaDOS at very base level depends on the Amiga chipset (I am curious since TRIPOS which AmigaDOS derive from, doesn’t depend on it), and how P96 need to mirror chipram for Workbench, especially since P96 also work on “clone systems” (like the mentioned Draco) that doesn’t have chipram... it’s great that we have an expert among us who can teach us all about this.
NovaCoder
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Re: Sponsoring RTG support

Unread post by NovaCoder »

I had a play around with this, my first problem was that it doesn't come with any screen modes (at least for me) so I had to grab some random settings file and then assign that to my minimig.card to get some modes to appear under prefs.

The second problem (which took me some time to figure out) is that only HDMI is supported, you cannot use it with a CRT monitor over the expansion IO board which is my preferred setup. Any plans to add RTG support for us CRT diehards?

Great work though, very impressive to have RTG for MiniMig :)


I'm happy to report that my AmiWolf RTG port is running already with this first update :mrgreen:
rhester72
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Re: Sponsoring RTG support

Unread post by rhester72 »

kolla wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:16 am Well, I would love to learn how AmigaDOS at very base level depends on the Amiga chipset (I am curious since TRIPOS which AmigaDOS derive from, doesn’t depend on it), and how P96 need to mirror chipram for Workbench, especially since P96 also work on “clone systems” (like the mentioned Draco) that doesn’t have chipram... it’s great that we have an expert among us who can teach us all about this.
You do realize that Intuition (which is NOT Workbench) still has to paint *somewhere*, right?

I didn't say it has to mirror chip RAM. I said it has to mirror the Workbench screen, because it's painted twice - once in Amiga memory, and once in framebuffer memory on-card. There's no "direct" draw straight into the card.

I give up. Keep the fantasy. Doesn't matter one whit to me, because it's not going to happen.
kolla
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Re: Sponsoring RTG support

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rhester72 wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:16 pm
kolla wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:16 am Well, I would love to learn how AmigaDOS at very base level depends on the Amiga chipset (I am curious since TRIPOS which AmigaDOS derive from, doesn’t depend on it), and how P96 need to mirror chipram for Workbench, especially since P96 also work on “clone systems” (like the mentioned Draco) that doesn’t have chipram... it’s great that we have an expert among us who can teach us all about this.
You do realize that Intuition (which is NOT Workbench) still has to paint *somewhere*, right?
I was not aware that Intuition is part of AmigaDOS.
I didn't say it has to mirror chip RAM. I said it has to mirror the Workbench screen, because it's painted twice - once in Amiga memory, and once in framebuffer memory on-card. There's no "direct" draw straight into the card.
Right, but that is due to physical graphic cards having their own memory - this is not the case on any of the FPGA systems, "Amiga memory" and "on-card memory" is the same memory - so (in principle) no need to paint anything twice.
I give up. Keep the fantasy. Doesn't matter one whit to me, because it's not going to happen.
Too late, it already happened, it is already working.
rhester72
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Re: Sponsoring RTG support

Unread post by rhester72 »

I truly have no idea what we're even discussing anymore.

To wit:

- If you put the CPU on ARM, slow/fast RAM will be on ARM and chip will be in FPGA. You're aware they are very different (physical on-die) memory subsystems on the DE10, yes?
- I NEVER disputed someone would port uaegfx to MiSTer. It was a given it would happen. What isn't working - and can't work, and won't work - is taking Amiga emulation entirely off FPGA and putting it solely on ARM, with or without ECS/AGA.

I'm going to withdraw from this discussion now because you keep changing the argument to a point that it's simply frustrating. I've no clue at all anymore what it is you're even arguing *for*, and I've entirely lost interest because it's super-clear that not only are you technically ignorant of both the Amiga and DE10, you don't wish to learn.
shaitan
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Re: Sponsoring RTG support

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bbond007 wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:50 am I really wanted to try this with ShapeShifter (Mac/Mac II emulator) and I'm not disappointed. I put together a 10 minute video showing the following:
THIS right here is what got me interested in trying out Minimig initially, or at least the potential of this. However, I have been pretty disappointed in performance so far. I'm sure a lot of that is just ignorance on my part on optimizations and I am hoping these recent changes are the bigger bit that was missing. I would love it if you could put together another thread detailing any gotchas when setting up Shapeshifter, if you were willing :)
kolla
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Re: Sponsoring RTG support

Unread post by kolla »

ScreenGrabbing using win+prtscr doesn't work properly with RTG, I get a file, but it is 1bit grayscale, 1280x241 (running 1280x720) and essentially black.
sergius
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Re: Sponsoring RTG support

Unread post by sergius »

Hi guys,
I'm new here. I'm trying to get RTG working but have a strange issue and need help.

After installation, I have got new resolutions as espected. Unfortunatly, when I chose a 16/9 resolution like 1280X720, the workbench is displayed very ugly and the Mister resolution information displays something strange like if the minimig were outputing 640X482 as you can see in this picture
https://nsa40.casimages.com/img/2020/10 ... 127235.jpg
https://nsa40.casimages.com/img/2020/10 ... 651750.jpg

Have you an idea please?

Than you
kolla
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Re: Sponsoring RTG support

Unread post by kolla »

Is this HDMI or VGA? It looks like there is some bad scaling going on. Does AGA 1280x720 work better?
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Grabulosaure
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Re: Sponsoring RTG support

Unread post by Grabulosaure »

kolla wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:21 am Is this HDMI or VGA? It looks like there is some bad scaling going on. Does AGA 1280x720 work better?
kolla wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:16 am ScreenGrabbing using win+prtscr doesn't work properly with RTG, I get a file, but it is 1bit grayscale, 1280x241 (running 1280x720) and essentially black.
RTG addition to Minimig use the scaler in "framebuffer" mode (this is also used for Linux console and AO486 SuperVGA modes).
There is currently no acceleration (no blitter, no cursor sprite)

The scaler outputs to the HDMI port, it can also be wired to the VGA port if the vga_scaler flag is set.
The RTG driver automatically switches between normal OCS/ECS/AGA video and high resolution video.

Actual output resolution in RTG mode is set by the mister.ini file, resolution configured in WorkBench is automatically upscaled to this fixed output resolution. Note that when using this "framebuffer" mode, the scaler cannot downscale, so to enjoy 1920x1080 WorkBench, you'll need 1920x1080 or higher screen resolution in mister.ini
Screenshots don't work either (although it could be doable). Use native native Amiga screenshot program instead.

Upcoming MiSTer Minimig RTG support owes a lot to @MikeJ FPGAArcade and @robinsonb5 MiST code.

https://www.fpgaarcade.com/kb/how-to-se ... 6-drivers/
https://github.com/FPGAArcade/amiga_cod ... master/rtg
https://github.com/robinsonb5/MinimigAGA_TC64
http://retroramblings.net/?page_id=1422
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limi
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RTG support

Unread post by limi »

Thank you for making this happen, Grabulosaure! And also MikeJ and robinsonb5 for the foundational work 😄
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limi
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RTG support (update: shipped!)

Unread post by limi »

RTG support has now shipped! Run your updaters and read the instructions for how to enable it on the Amiga side! 😄

Thank you to everyone that contributed to making this happen.
Michael1260
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Re: RTG support (update: shipped!)

Unread post by Michael1260 »

Very good, hope to see better network soon :-)
dhoelzer
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Re: RTG support (update: shipped!)

Unread post by dhoelzer »

Wow. This is absolutely incredible. THANK YOU!
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