Lets actually try Hybrid Emulation

foft
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Re: Lets actually try Hybrid Emulation

Unread post by foft »

Well, there are a few improvements. e.g. reset is plumbed in.

My suggestion for making it easy to use, though we need input/views from @Sorgelig here:

i) Made this a 3rd CPU, instead of stealing the 68020 slot. So we have FX68, TG68k and Hybrid options. Subject to the extra multiplexer layer not being a problem.
ii) We need a systematic way to start the CPU emulation automatically when needed. The hybrid emulation could be fairly complex so I'd say its best not to add it to the mister main binary. So a supporting process that is distributed with the Minimig.rbf. Perhaps a zip of rbf + supporting binaries. With the zip extracted/binary run when the core is programmed and stopped when another core is programmed. The only other thing needed is also a callback when the configuration is changed. So that the emulator can be started/stopped when Hybrid is selected/deselected as the CPU + maybe a way to force it to restart in case of problems.
iii) The fpga bridge is 16-bit and in sys_top, I'll see if this can be moved to emu since we may want a different setup for other cores.
iv) Include irq/ memory caching module in the official kernel.
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Re: Lets actually try Hybrid Emulation

Unread post by Caldor »

Sounds very promising :) If it is possible to have the core just allow the hybrid core as a third option that seems like the best of all worlds. The original Amiga 500 with the 68000, the 68020 for faster but still highly compatible Amiga and the hybrid core with the more advanced features for running higher end stuff. With all of that in the same, it seems to be a near perfect Amiga... I do still consider the MiSTer with its RTG one of the best Amiga solutions right now, if not the best. Only problem I have with it, is the lack of support for a floppy drive and maybe 060 support. 060 is still pretty much only a real Amiga that can do anyway though, even WinUAE and a highend PC seems to struggle to emulate such an Amiga.

I have the Vampire 1200 v2 and its a nice card, overall a really good solution. But not sure about its compatibility. So far I have not found any specific problems with it, but I have not tested it much either. Its just annoying to have to use two video outputs though.
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Re: Lets actually try Hybrid Emulation

Unread post by foft »

Well I added the 3rd cpu option to the core and the mister main tonight. Will test tomorrow night and also see about making it auto-start qemu when Hybrid is selected.
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Re: Lets actually try Hybrid Emulation

Unread post by kathleen »

Caldor wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:02 pm Sounds very promising :) If it is possible to have the core just allow the hybrid core as a third option that seems like the best of all worlds. The original Amiga 500 with the 68000, the 68020 for faster but still highly compatible Amiga and the hybrid core with the more advanced features for running higher end stuff. With all of that in the same, it seems to be a near perfect Amiga... I do still consider the MiSTer with its RTG one of the best Amiga solutions right now, if not the best. Only problem I have with it, is the lack of support for a floppy drive and maybe 060 support. 060 is still pretty much only a real Amiga that can do anyway though, even WinUAE and a highend PC seems to struggle to emulate such an Amiga.

I have the Vampire 1200 v2 and its a nice card, overall a really good solution. But not sure about its compatibility. So far I have not found any specific problems with it, but I have not tested it much either. Its just annoying to have to use two video outputs though.
I fully agree with all what you say. And yes, if as with Winuae, a real floppy (PC) drive could be used thanks to the Greaseweazle (or any other interface for the Mister) to read/write floppy disks, it will be the cherry on the cake. 060 CPU remains a dream for most of the people using an Amiga. Back in the days it was too expensive for a lambda user, and today a 060 is still too expensive and hardly findable on the market. On the other hands, if the Amiga is used only to play, well, the 060 is less needed as almost all the classic games were designed for 68000 & 68020.
This is the concern that I have with my Vampire V2 in my A2000. I have a lot of incompatibility with the games (due to the processor) fortunately WHDLOAD exists but not all games exist for WHDLOAD and not everyone wants to use it (especially if we like to use the real floppy drive :-)
The issue in terms of compatibility should be the same with the Vampire V2.
having all the options in one would be the perfect solution (for me at least), having the possibility to start in 68000(ECS/OCS), 68020(AGA/RTG), 68060(AGA/RTG) / Hybrid, for at the end keeping the maximum of compatibility with the hardware for which the games/applications were designed for and having the high end option for those who want to play demos, 3D apps, or any other stuffs requiring power.

Last but not least, I maybe already said that, but will never say enough, thank you @foft for your hard work !
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Re: Lets actually try Hybrid Emulation

Unread post by Caldor »

kathleen wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:06 am
Caldor wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:02 pm Sounds very promising :) If it is possible to have the core just allow the hybrid core as a third option that seems like the best of all worlds. The original Amiga 500 with the 68000, the 68020 for faster but still highly compatible Amiga and the hybrid core with the more advanced features for running higher end stuff. With all of that in the same, it seems to be a near perfect Amiga... I do still consider the MiSTer with its RTG one of the best Amiga solutions right now, if not the best. Only problem I have with it, is the lack of support for a floppy drive and maybe 060 support. 060 is still pretty much only a real Amiga that can do anyway though, even WinUAE and a highend PC seems to struggle to emulate such an Amiga.

I have the Vampire 1200 v2 and its a nice card, overall a really good solution. But not sure about its compatibility. So far I have not found any specific problems with it, but I have not tested it much either. Its just annoying to have to use two video outputs though.
I fully agree with all what you say. And yes, if as with Winuae, a real floppy (PC) drive could be used thanks to the Greaseweazle (or any other interface for the Mister) to read/write floppy disks, it will be the cherry on the cake. 060 CPU remains a dream for most of the people using an Amiga. Back in the days it was too expensive for a lambda user, and today a 060 is still too expensive and hardly findable on the market. On the other hands, if the Amiga is used only to play, well, the 060 is less needed as almost all the classic games were designed for 68000 & 68020.
This is the concern that I have with my Vampire V2 in my A2000. I have a lot of incompatibility with the games (due to the processor) fortunately WHDLOAD exists but not all games exist for WHDLOAD and not everyone wants to use it (especially if we like to use the real floppy drive :-)
The issue in terms of compatibility should be the same with the Vampire V2.
having all the options in one would be the perfect solution (for me at least), having the possibility to start in 68000(ECS/OCS), 68020(AGA/RTG), 68060(AGA/RTG) / Hybrid, for at the end keeping the maximum of compatibility with the hardware for which the games/applications were designed for and having the high end option for those who want to play demos, 3D apps, or any other stuffs requiring power.

Last but not least, I maybe already said that, but will never say enough, thank you @foft for your hard work !
Yeah, I always wanted Vampire cards to also have the option to easily switch to 68000 or 68020. Afaik they actually do 060 emulation quite well... hmm, not sure if it is emulation or if its more like what WINE does on Linux, where it just translates everything from one type of FPU to another and the same with the CPU calls. At any rate, it really seems like the only issue the Vampire cards have with 060 is only a few of those demos that are designed specifically for the 060. I was never one to care much for those demos, but I do have an Apollo 1260 expansion card so now I can test and compare Vampire v2 to an Apollo 1260. In general, while they are great, they are just not very user-friendly though. Its pretty difficult to softkick kickroms and such with 1260 expansion cards. I liked that about my ACA1221 expansion card. The first ones Individual Computers / Jens released. They have a pretty fast 020 CPU, I think it goes up to 48mhz and it has 64mb RAM if you unlock it fully.

But already as it is with the Minimig core, it even runs Doom quite well just with the RTG it has now and with the MiSTer it is still much much easier to use different kickroms and such. It would help a lot with floppy drive and / or support for copy protected disk image types. If that happened, I am sure we would see casings for the MiSTer that supported floppy drives. So many cores even support save states, so it really seems to become the best of all worlds. Making it as easy or sometimes even easier to use than emulators, having some of the more advanced features of emulators and still have the compatibility and timings of the original hardware. Also makes it easy to switch between different HDF files to boot different systems.

With Hybrid though, we could do a few more things with the Amiga and it would open up for some of the even more high end games... Doom would probably also run better. I have noticed Doom runs better on my Vampire and 060 powered Amiga 1200, but.. that is to be expected. It is still a pretty stable 10+ fps on the MiSTer which I consider stable.
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Re: Lets actually try Hybrid Emulation

Unread post by Caldor »

foft wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:40 pm Well I added the 3rd cpu option to the core and the mister main tonight. Will test tomorrow night and also see about making it auto-start qemu when Hybrid is selected.
Awesome :) I will be testing if you find a way to make it simpler to boot the core.
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Re: Lets actually try Hybrid Emulation

Unread post by foft »

OK, here is the first all in one test package. Note that it replaces the MiSTer binary and that its NOT compatible with the original minimig core (the cpu mapping changed). It includes FX68K, TG68 and the Arm 68020 +FPU via qemu.
http://www.64kib.com/mister_hybrid_file ... 13.tar.zst

It automatically installs the kernel modules and starts the helper process.

To use:
Mister:
i) Download the file and extract to /media/fat on the mister.
ii) Select 68Arm to use the hybrid cpu
Amiga:
i) Mount the mister share
ii) Put StackAttack_020 and AllocP into your startup sequence
iii) Reboot
iv) Run dhrystone_amiga -l to verity these are working - i.e. you get ~150-200k dhrystones/sec

Known issues:
i) Seems to crash if I leave it running unattended for 10 mins!
ii) Poor irq latency
iii) AIBB crashes on startup - think it doesn't like the allocator replacement for some reason.
iv) Works best with fastIDE off
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Re: Lets actually try Hybrid Emulation

Unread post by limi »

Nice progress!

To anyone wanting to test this: I’d recommend setting up a second SD card if you want to try this, so you don’t accidentally break your existing MiSTer setup if you have one.
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Re: Lets actually try Hybrid Emulation

Unread post by Caldor »

foft wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:33 pm OK, here is the first all in one test package. Note that it replaces the MiSTer binary and that its NOT compatible with the original minimig core (the cpu mapping changed). It includes FX68K, TG68 and the Arm 68020 +FPU via qemu.
http://www.64kib.com/mister_hybrid_file ... 13.tar.zst

It automatically installs the kernel modules and starts the helper process.

To use:
Mister:
i) Download the file and extract to /media/fat on the mister.
ii) Select 68Arm to use the hybrid cpu
Amiga:
i) Mount the mister share
ii) Put StackAttack_020 and AllocP into your startup sequence
iii) Reboot
iv) Run dhrystone_amiga -l to verity these are working - i.e. you get ~150-200k dhrystones/sec

Known issues:
i) Seems to crash if I leave it running unattended for 10 mins!
ii) Poor irq latency
iii) AIBB crashes on startup - think it doesn't like the allocator replacement for some reason.
Awesome :D Great work. This might be what I end up doing this weekend :) I will get around to testing this once I am off work.
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Re: Lets actually try Hybrid Emulation

Unread post by NinjaWarrior »

Thank you!! I tried it but I only get a black screen if I activate the 68arm option, working as usual if I leave it at 68000. Copied archive files to media/fat.

This is what I get if I try to launch the script "start" from ssh:

Code: Select all

media/fat/Minimig_Hybrid# start
pid 1446's current affinity mask: 3
pid 1446's new affinity mask: 1
mount: /sys/kernel/debug: none already mounted on /sys/kernel/debug.
insmod: ERROR: could not insert module /media/fat/Minimig_Hybrid/kernel_patch/dtbocfg.ko: Invalid module format
mount: /sys/kernel/config: none already mounted on /sys/kernel/debug.
mkdir: cannot create directory ‘/sys/kernel/config/device-tree/overlays/minimig’: No such file or directory
/media/fat/Minimig_Hybrid/kernel_patch/minimig.dts:9.11-37: Warning (interrupts_property): /fragment@0/__overlay__/minimig_irq:interrupt-parent: Bad phandle
cp: cannot create regular file '/sys/kernel/config/device-tree/overlays/minimig/dtbo': No such file or directory
insmod: ERROR: could not insert module /media/fat/Minimig_Hybrid/kernel_patch/minimig-irq.ko: Invalid module format
./setup: line 15: /sys/kernel/config/device-tree/overlays/minimig/status: No such file or directory
qemu ram size:10485760 KB
Segmentation fault
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Re: Lets actually try Hybrid Emulation

Unread post by foft »

'Invalid module format' is the problem, which kernel do you have? I have this and built them against it:
Linux MiSTer 5.14.5-MiSTer #2 SMP Fri Sep 17 03:26:30 CST 2021 armv7l GNU/Linux

Oh crap that reminds me, I think Sorgelig did a 2nd kernel update. I need to update my mister and rebuild these.
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Re: Lets actually try Hybrid Emulation

Unread post by NinjaWarrior »

foft wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:40 pm 'Invalid module format' is the problem, which kernel do you have? I have this and built them against it:
Linux MiSTer 5.14.5-MiSTer #2 SMP Fri Sep 17 03:26:30 CST 2021 armv7l GNU/Linux

Oh crap that reminds me, I think Sorgelig did a 2nd kernel update. I need to update my mister and rebuild these.
Thank you for your reply, I figured that but I was not sure about it. In fact, I updated my Mister thinking I had an old kernel. Please post them when you rebuild them, I am really interested in your fantastic work! Thank you!

Kernel:

Linux 5.15.1-MiSTer #1 SMP Fri Nov 12 21:05:10 CST 2021 armv7l
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Re: Lets actually try Hybrid Emulation

Unread post by foft »

Updated for new kernel (5.15.1-MiSTer):
http://www.64kib.com/mister_hybrid_file ... 14.tar.zst

Also a change that I thought might fix and/or improve the freeze after 10 mins or so, not sure.
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Re: Lets actually try Hybrid Emulation

Unread post by NinjaWarrior »

Tested and working! I tried some games (like Frontier) and demos, obviously some glitches and problems, but looks VERY promising!
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Re: Lets actually try Hybrid Emulation

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I have begun installing it. I noticed the file was an ZST file... why? I downloaded PeaZip to be able to unpack it. But ran into another issue. One of the files are a symlink file? I suspect I need that?

Does this mean I have to unpack it on the MiSTer itself and cannot do it from my PC?

Hmm, seems like Total Commander was able to extract it without causing an error. It just ignored that it was a symlink I think, so... might not work. Also it just seems to link "start_qemu"?

Edit: Been testing some more. I can run the core... well, it does not freeze. But it just has a black screen. I copied the Minimig_Hybrid folder both to my USB and FAT drive. I use my USB for my games. I can boot when I change the settings to not use the 68ARM CPU. But otherwise it just does nothing it seems. Might be related to the symlink file. I will try to figure out how to get into the Linux shell on the MiSTer and see if maybe I can unpack the package on it directly.
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Re: Lets actually try Hybrid Emulation

Unread post by foft »

zst is zstandard. It’s a really well respected compressor, very fast too. Do you prefer xz or bz2?

Best to extract the tar on the mister with working directly /media/fat:
tar -xpvf filename.tar
It will put all the files into the right directories.

The start symlink is just to choose musashi or qemu. You can just rename either of start_qemu or start_musashi to start.
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Re: Lets actually try Hybrid Emulation

Unread post by Caldor »

Okay, I got it running. I manually recreated the symlink start file using Midnight Commander on the MiSTer. That got it booting correctly. I had to stop it from booting an HDF as I think it disliked my HDF setups for some reason.

So I switched the default setup to have no HDDs enabled and just booted a straight up 3.1 ROM. Then I booted a SysInfo 4.4 bootdisk and got this:
image_2022-01-14_220944.png
image_2022-01-14_220944.png (1.17 MiB) Viewed 551 times
I have not been adding the extra files yet though.
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Re: Lets actually try Hybrid Emulation

Unread post by Caldor »

foft wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:15 pm zst is zstandard. It’s a really well respected compressor, very fast too. Do you prefer xz or bz2?

Best to extract the tar on the mister with working directly /media/fat:
tar -xpvf filename.tar
It will put all the files into the right directories.

The start symlink is just to choose musashi or qemu. You can just rename either of start_qemu or start_musashi to start.
Ahh, thanks. Well, as I just shared I did get it running. I normally use 7zip on my Windows PC. It Zst does seem to be an effective compression, I just usually stick with zip or rar, and if its Amiga native maybe lha. I guess they might not be that effective though.

I was suspected renaming one of those files would do the trick but had not tried it yet.
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Re: Lets actually try Hybrid Emulation

Unread post by foft »

For hdf files you need to disable that "Fast-IDE" setting. I don't know what it does yet and why it doesn't work.
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Re: Lets actually try Hybrid Emulation

Unread post by Caldor »

foft wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:28 pm For hdf files you need to disable that "Fast-IDE" setting. I don't know what it does yet and why it doesn't work.
Ahh, I did that at one point and I did boot one I think. I guess it might not have kept the setting off. For now I am making sure I do not use an HDF to begin with. Then at least I can boot it and setup another setup afterwards.

Well, its working now, and I will try to follow the rest of your guide.
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Re: Lets actually try Hybrid Emulation

Unread post by foft »

I'd like to be able to run native arm compiled amiga os binaries, just from recompiling them if they are written in C. I wonder what it'd take to make that happen?
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Re: Lets actually try Hybrid Emulation

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foft wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:17 pm I'd like to be able to run native arm compiled amiga os binaries, just from recompiling them if they are written in C. I wonder what it'd take to make that happen?
Hmmm.... the source code did leak for AmigaOS at one point. I think I managed to grab it somewhere, but since I code in C# and not C or C++, I have not tried doing anything with it. Not sure if I still have it or if it works though.
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Re: Lets actually try Hybrid Emulation

Unread post by NinjaWarrior »

Caldor wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:10 pm So I switched the default setup to have no HDDs enabled and just booted a straight up 3.1 ROM. Then I booted a SysInfo 4.4 bootdisk and got this:
How did you manage to get so many MIPS? I just boot the sysinfo disk (without HD - 68ARM (qemu) - OCS - 2Mb fast) and I get 10.52 mips... If I use musashi I get even less.
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Re: Lets actually try Hybrid Emulation

Unread post by Caldor »

NinjaWarrior wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:52 pm
Caldor wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:10 pm So I switched the default setup to have no HDDs enabled and just booted a straight up 3.1 ROM. Then I booted a SysInfo 4.4 bootdisk and got this:
How did you manage to get so many MIPS? I just boot the sysinfo disk (without HD - 68ARM (qemu) - OCS - 2Mb fast) and I get 10.52 mips... If I use musashi I get even less.
Good question. Might be the version of SysInfo I am using? Pretty sure I have noticed different scores betweendifferent versions. I just tried running that dhrystone_amiga tool and it gave me 135135 dhrystones/sec after running for 5... whatever 5 of the l option is. It also gave a score of 76 dmips.

I will try other versions of SysInfo. My settings are 68ARM, AGA, 2MB chip, 256MB FAST. I am running kickrom 3.1 and Workbench 3.1.

I have D-Cache off, with it on I think I only get 6 mps, maybe less. But it might have been random, but even with QEMU there was one time the SysInfo test was really low and I think it was because of the D-Cache setting. update: Tried with D-Cache on, does not seem to impact the test speed. Not sure why it suddenly had such a low score last time.

I did another test with 4.4 and it has a very similar score:
image_2022-01-15_001020.png
image_2022-01-15_001020.png (1.18 MiB) Viewed 419 times
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Re: Lets actually try Hybrid Emulation

Unread post by NinjaWarrior »

Caldor wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:07 pm Good question. Might be the version of SysInfo I am using? Pretty sure I have noticed different scores betweendifferent versions. I just tried running that dhrystone_amiga tool and it gave me 135135 dhrystones/sec after running for 5... whatever 5 of the l option is. It also gave a score of 76 dmips.

I will try other versions of SysInfo. My settings are 68ARM, AGA, 2MB chip, 256MB FAST. I have D-Cache off, with it on I think I only get 6 mps, maybe less. But it might have been random, but even with QEMU there was one time the SysInfo test was really low and I think it was because of the D-Cache setting.
Ok, I was answering just now and I saw your message. The problem is I was using just 2Mb Fast. Using 256Mb gets the boost to 54 MIPS. :shock:

D-Cache seems to impact chipmem speed:

D-Cache ON:
minimigqemu1.jpg
minimigqemu1.jpg (111.56 KiB) Viewed 411 times
D-Cache OFF:
minimigqemu_dcacheoff.jpg
minimigqemu_dcacheoff.jpg (95.87 KiB) Viewed 411 times
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Re: Lets actually try Hybrid Emulation

Unread post by Caldor »

I did a test with SysInfo 3.24 and it was a bit lower but not by much. Interesting that it helped adding more fast ram... I wonder what happen if we max it? Edit: not much, tried 384mb fast ram and it was still the same score as with 256mb. I guess 2mb fast becomes a bottleneck.

image_2022-01-15_001543.png
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Re: Lets actually try Hybrid Emulation

Unread post by Caldor »

Well, it certainly seems a lot more stable than any of the times I tried this before. So that is awesome. Time to try some games I think :) Maybe also compare to MiSTer 020 in performance. Doom is usually a nice one to go with.

I even installed Workbench 3.1 with this 68arm CPU, so it seems pretty stable, but games is the real test I guess.
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Re: Lets actually try Hybrid Emulation

Unread post by NinjaWarrior »

Seems D-Cache impacts chipmem speed, and you need to add some quite amount of Fast RAM to boost the MIPS. I am testing now real scenarios to check if it really translates to real use.
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Re: Lets actually try Hybrid Emulation

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I have been testing some games. I tried Defender of the Crown, and the music is slow. Seems the speed varies a bit as well. So the slowdown is not constant. I also tried Desert Strike, but it seemed to have normal sound. Defender of the Crown crashed after switching to disk 2, I ran it from floppy.

I also tried 020, and I have noticed the UI is... a LOT faster... when using the 020 MiSTer CPU. Everything did seem quite slow to me when running with the 68arm CPU in Workbench. I tested the 020 speed and it was the normal MiSTer speed. I tried Doom and it does run but seems slow, but about the same speed as the 020. Although I do remember it as running a bit faster on the MiSTer. Might have been because I have been playing it on faster systems though.

I tried running HDF based games, ones that has a bootable HDF and often they just crash the whole thing. It also happens with the 020 CPU. I will try with the other MiSTer Main core and the regular Amiga core and see if that might make a difference... otherwise it seems the new MiSTer Linux might have a problem with some HDF types. Pretty sure the MiSTer Main had this issue a while ago. Is this based on the most recent version of MiSTer main?
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Re: Lets actually try Hybrid Emulation

Unread post by Caldor »

I tested with the normal Minimig. It would not crash trying to boot those HDF based games, but it would not boot them either. Quite sure they ought to be bootable. So I guess MiSTer might still have some trouble recognizing some HDF files.

Defender of the Crown had a normal music speed with the 020 core. I think I will try testing with Musashi and see if it might be stable even if its slower than the regular core. But being able to test this fast is really nice, not having to go to my computer and boot the core from a Putty shell and hoping the timing was right, ever reset and boot. I have also not tested the FPU yet on the QEMU based 020 CPU.

Edit: I tested Mushashi and it is more stable. Defender of the Crown runs normally and without errors. Normal Music speed as well. I did a speedtest in SysInfo and I think it says 3.7 MIPS, so I remembered wrong when I thought it was 6 MIPS. It was below 4. So its slower than the normal MiSTer core, but it being stable is very promising. The QEMU core having FPU is also very promising. The SysInfo test even benchmarks it.
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