Real Floppy Drive

Lukage
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Re: Real floppy drive

Unread post by Lukage »

NightShadowPT wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:31 am Will it be possible, after the adapter is finished to add Floppy disk support to other cores from computers that had floppy drives back in the day? Or is this an Amiga exclusive?
TBH my primary interest is Amiga. I have floppy drive associated with that computer. But my primary objective is to wire the floppy drive to MiSTer in dumbest way possible in term of any interface intelligence. Anyone should be able to use floppy drive with any core, if it is (or was, in that era) possible to use PC drive in that one specific system, even with some modifications. Everything about specific floppy drive code is in FPGA, and needs to be done in per-core basis. For example, there is incompatibility between Amiga and PC drive on two signals, and it needs to be emulated/worked around in FPGA, very much as there were/still are interfaces available for connecting PC drives to real Amiga.
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Re: Real floppy drive

Unread post by toastboy »

Lukage wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:02 pm I am currently thinking about moving "Floppy drive turbo" option into Floppy drive submenu. In this floppy drive submenu you would be able to enable floppy adapter board, and assign DFx to it. But this will collide with that KP +/- add/remove selection of ADF.... Best would be to have DF0 - DF4 in root menu enabled, and just select if it is ADF or floppy adapter..... What do you think ? Any ideas ?
As far as KP+/- goes, I'm guessing from your question that it'll be a pain to make mister skip that behaviour on real floppy drives, but perhaps it's possible to just stub in the code, just do nothing and return success.

On the 2-floppy quesion, I'd say only pursue this if it doesn't hurt the overall aim of having a simple stable device and config. Besides, we know sorg generally avoids things that are needlessly complicated, so keeping it simple might help sell the thing to him.

For the floppy menu, why not keep the current layout with df0,1,2,3 and allow them to be selectable between [disabled|ADF|real_device0|real_device1], assuming the more complex case of 2 floppies on same cable as d0/d1.
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Re: Real floppy drive

Unread post by Lukage »

toastboy wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:07 pm On the 2-floppy quesion, I'd say only pursue this if it doesn't hurt the overall aim of having a simple stable device and config. Besides, we know sorg generally avoids things that are needlessly complicated, so keeping it simple might help sell the thing to him.
Yeah, I will probably stick with just one drive for now. I am planning on using only one floppy drive in a MiSTer box anyway.

Also, just a quick update - write is working. I have to admit, I did use 50MHz clock as a baseline for generating precise bit clock for floppy output. In this way, I was able to create exact bit clock for floppy writes. It is possible to use Amiga frequencies for this, but they are not 100% exact, there is always a small error.

I will try to create some meaningful way for that floppy selection in MiSTer menu.
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Re: Real floppy drive

Unread post by Caldor »

limi wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:37 pm …and if you want to have a case that can fit the MiSTer and a floppy drive, this might be of interest. 😄
Well, another option might be modifying this case a bit:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1450&p=12385&hilit=3d+print#p12385
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Re: Real floppy drive

Unread post by retrorepair »

Lukage wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 10:21 am Also, just a quick update - write is working. I have to admit, I did use 50MHz clock as a baseline for generating precise bit clock for floppy output. In this way, I was able to create exact bit clock for floppy writes. It is possible to use Amiga frequencies for this, but they are not 100% exact, there is always a small error.
Do you mean an error when using clk_sys? Have you created a PLL for 50mhz?

There shouldn't be any errors using the base clock if it's triggering on the edge, at least I don't know why there would be.
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Re: Real floppy drive

Unread post by Lukage »

retrorepair wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:17 am Do you mean an error when using clk_sys? Have you created a PLL for 50mhz?
No, I meant slight error in producing exact 2us out of 7,09379 MHz clk7_ena for write bits. But it was overdone, there is always error in motor spinning, so there is no point doing it exact. I've redone it using clk7_ena, it integrates much better.
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NightShadowPT
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Re: Real floppy drive

Unread post by NightShadowPT »

Lukage wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:22 pm TBH my primary interest is Amiga. I have floppy drive associated with that computer. But my primary objective is to wire the floppy drive to MiSTer in dumbest way possible in term of any interface intelligence. Anyone should be able to use floppy drive with any core, if it is (or was, in that era) possible to use PC drive in that one specific system, even with some modifications. Everything about specific floppy drive code is in FPGA, and needs to be done in per-core basis. For example, there is incompatibility between Amiga and PC drive on two signals, and it needs to be emulated/worked around in FPGA, very much as there were/still are interfaces available for connecting PC drives to real Amiga.
That's good news, thanks for your reply.

If I'm honest, the floppy sound (and using of floppies) is more important for the Amiga to myself as well, but it would seem like a lost opportunity to have such a wonderful feature be reused in other cores.

Thanks for your hard work. I look forward to see the final result!

Cheers
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Re: Real floppy drive

Unread post by retrorepair »

Also, an option just to export the motor control signals when using adfs would be nice :)
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Re: Real floppy drive

Unread post by Caldor »

From what I have heard, and what I understand, it would probably be much much simpler getting a floppy and CD drive to work for the AO486 core, so it would mainly be for the convenience an neatness to have this capable of supporting both cores. I do suspect that AO486 might be able to even use a USB floppy and a USB CD drive. The main problem with that from what I have heard, is the Linux core on MiSTer currently does not have the drivers to support this... or something like that. This is from the guy who is trying to make an expansion for the AO486 core on the MiSTer that can support a PCI port. Which, if it succeeds might also be useful for the Minimig core I guess, but I suspect that would require some love from one of the experienced Minimig developers.

Btw. I would be up to supporting the Minimig floppy project via Patreon if there is one or one was setup... ;)
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Re: Real floppy drive

Unread post by retrorepair »

The thing is, this is interfacing directly with the Amiga floppy controller so it's certainly not a trivial thing to implement in another core, each will be a special case and in the case of AO486 I'm not sure these signals are even exposed.
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Re: Real floppy drive

Unread post by Caldor »

retrorepair wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:33 am The thing is, this is interfacing directly with the Amiga floppy controller so it's certainly not a trivial thing to implement in another core, each will be a special case and in the case of AO486 I'm not sure these signals are even exposed.
They should be. Its already floppy drives that are implemented, afaik, and I think more than one actually got it working with custom cores.

So it should only be a matter of taking this and solution and mapping the floppy signals of the different cores to this. F.ex. I think two of the signals are swapped when comparing Amiga and PC floppy signals, but I think there might be a bit more to it. But should not be more than could be gotten around in the FPGA core code. Otherwise, he has already talked about adding a hardware switch that could be used to make the floppy adapter support Amiga or PC drives. But I do think it might be better to have it be something the cores handle, so nothing physical has to be done when switching between cores.
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Re: Real floppy drive

Unread post by retrorepair »

There's more to it than that.

I've looked at the AO486 core and it's not obvious which if any signals are being used. I'm not sure that core uses a floppy controller as such, even though it does handle images (I assume).

Not saying it can't be done, I'd like to see it, but only the hardware would be relevant and some of the menu code. The rest would need to be rewritten for each core.
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Re: Real floppy drive

Unread post by Caldor »

I think there would be no getting around having to rewrite / add code for each core to make it work no matter how its done.
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Re: Real floppy drive

Unread post by Newsdee »

Let's worry about other cores only after this is done for minimig :)
Lukage
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Re: Real floppy drive

Unread post by Lukage »

A quick update: Below is a link to a video file showing MiSTer Floppy working with read, write, and DFx selection in MiSTer menu. It is still work in progress, there are still some bugs to catch.

First, there is a blank/erased floppy inserted under XCopy as DF1. It shows that it is not a DOS disk. Next, it is written with Workbench image from ADF in DF0. Then you can see that it was successfully written, and Minimig core is rebooted using DF0 only as external drive. As a next step, Workbench is loaded from physical floppy, and then formatted under Workbench. It shows both read and write capability, and possibility to migrate external drive to any DFx.

https://uloz.to/file/VZ8tla7rXvUI/miste ... totype-mp4

Link on the sharing server will expire on 31.12.2020. Hopefully, I will have better video prepared till that date ;)

On technical side: Because I am still catching bugs, you can see that floppy is connected with additional wires to MiSTer besides user port. I still do have heavy trouble shifting control signals in a serial manner, especially if I am trying to debug floppy core inside Minimig. I needed to have one trouble less, hence I've connected floppy signals to unused I/O on analog board. It is possible to have full floppy connected via these additional wires (7 user port, 5 additional on unused GPIO). This gives in total 12 I/O, which is exactly what is needed to have all signals for one floppy connected (only things which are not connected are density select, motor enable A and select A signals). This way, a simple open-drain level conversion is all what is needed to glue floppy to MiSTer, and still have all original peripherals connected.

Sure, the written disks can be read by real Amiga and vice versa ;)

Please let me know, if someone wants to tinker with this 12 I/O GPIO version and make some level conversion, I can eventually publish some code to play with :)
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Re: Real floppy drive

Unread post by ron »

It's simply wonderful. Thanks a lot.
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Re: Real floppy drive

Unread post by retrorepair »

Lukage wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:39 pm Please let me know, if someone wants to tinker with this 12 I/O GPIO version and make some level conversion, I can eventually publish some code to play with :)
Yes please :)

Excellent work by the way!
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Re: Real floppy drive

Unread post by Newsdee »

Wow, great work!
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NightShadowPT
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Re: Real floppy drive

Unread post by NightShadowPT »

Amazing progress!

Looking forward to have one of these on my system.

Thanks for your work.
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Re: Real floppy drive

Unread post by Obraxis »

Such great progress! Awesome job. 😁
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Re: Real floppy drive

Unread post by UgoR934 »

Lukage wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:39 pm Please let me know, if someone wants to tinker with this 12 I/O GPIO version and make some level conversion, I can eventually publish some code to play with :)
AWESOME job! Yes please, if you'll be so kind to publish the code, we can try to help ironing out some bugs using the 12 GPIO version. Thanks!
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Re: Real floppy drive

Unread post by Caldor »

I would be interesting in trying this with a 12 GPIO version. I already have a bunch of those cables needed, the IO board might be a problem though. You got that from PCBWay? Did you have to solder much yourself?

Its so nice seeing a floppy drive working directly with the MiSTer :) Other than MiSTer supporting so many different systems, one of the main reasons I have gotten the MiSTer is in the hope of this being a way to get an FPGA that could be put into an Amiga casing and support Amiga hardware, with the floppy drive being the main thing I hoped to see support for. I think there is currently only one FPGA solution with Amiga support and it would not fit into an Amiga casing.
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Re: Real floppy drive

Unread post by Lukage »

I was a little bit busy with family christmas meetings over the previous weekend, and my current daily load at work is also bigger, so I am sending here the exact same source code, as was used in the floppy video I sent last week. I wanted to work more on this before releasing anything, but it could take considerable amount of time I don't currently have due to christmas (also I am making a box for MiSTer with floppy drive ;) )

It is heavily unfinished, and it is more a ugly hack than the real deal.

There are bugs I know of (DMA transfer code needs to be worked through and tailored to real floppy workings, accidental blocking of right cursor key in mister menu, diskchange signal may be different to your drive - I didn't tested any but one drive, very modern, but it seems to have Amiga compatible diskchange, etc.), and there are bugs I don't know of.

What you will need:

1) some way to connect floppy drive to GPIO. GPIO pins on FPGA are 3.3V LVTTL compliant, and are NOT 5V tolerant. 3.3V FPGA outputs are all open-drain, 5V floppy drive outputs are also open-drain. You will figure this out with plenty of options including some more dangerous for FPGA. I've enabled clamping diodes in FPGA on I/O just to be a little more on a safe side. What signal goes where is hidden in Verilog code itself, but I can provide a clue:

Code: Select all

PIN_U14   IO_SCL      STEP
PIN_AG9   IO_SDA      TRACK0
PIN_AF17  USER_IO[6]  DSKRD
PIN_AF15  USER_IO[5]  WPROT
PIN_AG16  USER_IO[4]  DSKCHG
PIN_AH11  USER_IO[3]  DIR
PIN_AH12  USER_IO[2]  SIDE1
PIN_AH9   USER_IO[1]  MOTORB
PIN_AG11  USER_IO[0]  DRVSELB
PIN_AH8   SD_SPI_MISO INDEX
PIN_AG8   SD_SPI_CLK  DKWD
PIN_U13   SD_SPI_MOSI DKWE

GPIO_OUT({SD_SPI_CLK,SD_SPI_MOSI,IO_SCL}),
GPIO_IN({SD_SPI_MISO,IO_SDA})
Use DE10-Nano manual and MiSTer I/O board schematic and board layout pdf from https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Hardware_MiSTer

2) Quartus 17.0.2 Lite to be able to compile Minimig core. Use provided fpga.patch to current Minimig core code from https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Minimig-AGA_MiSTer

3) Linaro GCC toolchain version 5.4.1-2017.01 from https://releases.linaro.org/components/ ... gnueabihf/ and make to be able to compile MiSTer main binary. Use provided binary.patch to current MiSTer main binary source code from https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_MiSTer

Have fun !
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Caldor
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Re: Real floppy drive

Unread post by Caldor »

Lukage wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:02 pm I was a little bit busy with family christmas meetings over the previous weekend, and my current daily load at work is also bigger, so I am sending here the exact same source code, as was used in the floppy video I sent last week. I wanted to work more on this before releasing anything, but it could take considerable amount of time I don't currently have due to christmas (also I am making a box for MiSTer with floppy drive ;) )

It is heavily unfinished, and it is more a ugly hack than the real deal.

There are bugs I know of (DMA transfer code needs to be worked through and tailored to real floppy workings, accidental blocking of right cursor key in mister menu, diskchange signal may be different to your drive - I didn't tested any but one drive, very modern, but it seems to have Amiga compatible diskchange, etc.), and there are bugs I don't know of.

What you will need:

1) some way to connect floppy drive to GPIO. GPIO pins on FPGA are 3.3V LVTTL compliant, and are NOT 5V tolerant. 3.3V FPGA outputs are all open-drain, 5V floppy drive outputs are also open-drain. You will figure this out with plenty of options including some more dangerous for FPGA. I've enabled clamping diodes in FPGA on I/O just to be a little more on a safe side. What signal goes where is hidden in Verilog code itself, but I can provide a clue:

Code: Select all

PIN_U14   IO_SCL      STEP
PIN_AG9   IO_SDA      TRACK0
PIN_AF17  USER_IO[6]  DSKRD
PIN_AF15  USER_IO[5]  WPROT
PIN_AG16  USER_IO[4]  DSKCHG
PIN_AH11  USER_IO[3]  DIR
PIN_AH12  USER_IO[2]  SIDE1
PIN_AH9   USER_IO[1]  MOTORB
PIN_AG11  USER_IO[0]  DRVSELB
PIN_AH8   SD_SPI_MISO INDEX
PIN_AG8   SD_SPI_CLK  DKWD
PIN_U13   SD_SPI_MOSI DKWE

GPIO_OUT({SD_SPI_CLK,SD_SPI_MOSI,IO_SCL}),
GPIO_IN({SD_SPI_MISO,IO_SDA})
Use DE10-Nano manual and MiSTer I/O board schematic and board layout pdf from https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Hardware_MiSTer

2) Quartus 17.0.2 Lite to be able to compile Minimig core. Use provided fpga.patch to current Minimig core code from https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Minimig-AGA_MiSTer

3) Linaro GCC toolchain version 5.4.1-2017.01 from https://releases.linaro.org/components/ ... gnueabihf/ and make to be able to compile MiSTer main binary. Use provided binary.patch to current MiSTer main binary source code from https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_MiSTer

Have fun !
Wont it also need that USB board? The first point does not seem to go into that. Dont you have a board blueprint for that or something that we can then either make ourselves or order from some PCB maker?
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Re: Real Floppy Drive

Unread post by Lukage »

Caldor wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:41 pm Wont it also need that USB board? The first point does not seem to go into that. Dont you have a board blueprint for that or something that we can then either make ourselves or order from some PCB maker?
Actually, no, you don't need that board. In this GPIO version, that board serves only as a level converter with open-drain outputs. You just create any type of suitable level conversion for 5V floppy signals, and connect it with analog board. There are holes in analog board on unused GPIO pins, just use some jumper wires. This is that 5 additional GPIO pins. User port has 7 pins in total, on USB3 connector. Just use USB3 A connector with short wires from it, and you are good to go. If you don't have any connector or you don't want to cut any USB3 cable to get a nice pigtail, just solder some jumper wires to analog board on pins used by USB3 user port. Just connect all these wires to some prototyping board (solderless breadboard or some PCB), and do some level conversion on that board.

This is experimental setup, so please don't fry your DE10-Nano boards ! Remember, you can't connect floppy drive directly !
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Caldor
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Re: Real Floppy Drive

Unread post by Caldor »

Lukage wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:58 pm
Caldor wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:41 pm Wont it also need that USB board? The first point does not seem to go into that. Dont you have a board blueprint for that or something that we can then either make ourselves or order from some PCB maker?
Actually, no, you don't need that board. In this GPIO version, that board serves only as a level converter with open-drain outputs. You just create any type of suitable level conversion for 5V floppy signals, and connect it with analog board. There are holes in analog board on unused GPIO pins, just use some jumper wires. This is that 5 additional GPIO pins. User port has 7 pins in total, on USB3 connector. Just use USB3 A connector with short wires from it, and you are good to go. If you don't have any connector or you don't want to cut any USB3 cable to get a nice pigtail, just solder some jumper wires to analog board on pins used by USB3 user port. Just connect all these wires to some prototyping board (solderless breadboard or some PCB), and do some level conversion on that board.

This is experimental setup, so please don't fry your DE10-Nano boards ! Remember, you can't connect floppy drive directly !
Ahh... I was hoping to not have to make my own USB cables and such. I have some bad experiences short circuiting 2-3 PS/2 keyboards trying to make a micro-USB to PS/2 adapter. Which is why I was hoping there would be a board I could make that would take care of stuff like ensuring its 5V and making it clear which pin goes where. I do not have enough floppy drives, or MiSTers to want to risk doing something this direct, especially when it needs a level conversion. Taking wires between some connectors or soldering a well defined chipset is about the limit of my technical skill when it comes to electronics.
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Re: Real Floppy Drive

Unread post by Lukage »

Yes, this was mainly for those who wanted to experiment before any release. I could post gerbers for CPLD version like in the video, but you would need a way to program Xilinx device, so I wasn't even thinking about it.

I still want to use only a user port, and create board for this user port version, like it was in renders.

It is also possible, that we come to some agreement to use unused pins on Analog board and don't create user port only version. In that case I can draw a simple board with USB3 connector, connector for 5 jumper wires, floppy connector and level conversion using cheap non-programmable parts. It does not affect any peripheral on analog io board, but it is incompatible with MiSTer template.
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Re: Real Floppy Drive

Unread post by Caldor »

I can compile FPGA cores, but not sure that helps much. I have looked at code and tried a bit of changing some of it, but its pretty far from what I am used to with C#. I think the most advanced thing I have done with electronics is the USB to PS/2 adapter and recapping a CD32. I do have a project with a ReAmiga 1200, but it just needs some ports to be moved from one board to another as the rest is already done.

I will just wait for a release then. Amazing work though, I hope Sorg is open to implement it. I do think he has plans for using the GPIO pins for a MIDI emulations thing done with a Pi. Both being optional I guess it could just be up to the user what to go with.
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Re: Real Floppy Drive

Unread post by Lukage »

Update: I've corrected some bugs here and there, and added write precompensation logic. Write precompensation follows what is in original Amiga, so there are four levels: 0, 140, 280 and 560ns.

I've thoroughly disassembled and cleaned old SFD-321B drive from Samsung to test with, so I have perfect specimen of a very common drive out in public.

Does anyone attempting to use the published code and is actually connecting a real floppy drive? It would be great if someone can test floppy core on own drive and connection. Also, I would like to know if it would be meaningful to publish any changes and fixes to the code.
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Re: Real Floppy Drive

Unread post by UgoR934 »

Hi Lukage, yes, I'll try it during post-Christmas vacations (2-8 January, 2021).. or maybe before, due to the usual "covid last minute lockdowns".
I just have to download the software to look at I/O board schematic and "design" the small prot-board for level-conversion.. doing right now..

I have both Sony and similar floppy drives and some original repaired Chinon drives from Amiga 500. If you want to publish new patches, I'll try them, even not "tomorrow".
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