N64 Core

the_importer
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Re: N64 Core

Unread post by the_importer »

makjade wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 2:05 pm Very possible a N64 core wont be on the DE-10 NANO. But i do remember people saying the PSX or the 32X was not possible also.
I've been around the MiSTer scene long enough to recall them saying that a GBA core or disc based system wouldn't be possible. That being said, the one reason I don't believe that we won't get an N64 core is because the system is so complicated, that over 23 years after the 1st N64 emulator was released, we still don't have near perfect emulation to this day. It took more than 10 years after the N64 was emulated to get Saturn emulation going and it has surpassed it since then.
thorr
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Re: N64 Core

Unread post by thorr »

In my mind, getting an N64 core on the MiSTer will never happen. With that being said, it might be possible to get something that represents an N64, but is not 100% accurate, such as HLE (high level emulation like UltraHLE) where the parts that are not optimized on the N64 get rewritten in FPGA so they can work. This would most likely cause compatibility issues. Another possibility is to use the Arm chip to do some of the work. Neither of these two options would be the 100% equivalent to an N64. I already recently purchased an N64, so I don't need it in the MiSTer. ;-)
Larkhainan
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Re: N64 Core

Unread post by Larkhainan »

AmanoJacu wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:52 pm At least thanks to the cartridges, Nintendo didn't have to worry about the massive piracy that crippled the PSX (and Saturn) in some markets. Although some could argue that increased PSSX popularity, I still think it hurt games sales.
Attach rate + total sales doesn't pan out on this one. The PSX destroyed the N64. Nintendo fucked around and found out.

Owing to cartridges a bunch of games aren't even 64-bit. It was a huge mistake and without the Wii (and Switch) nailing the casual market Nintendo probably would have gone the way of Sega after fucking around so hard. Especially funny given without Sega fucking the Sonic 2 dev team and the SNES CD joint venture Sony probably doesn't even go a third as strong or goes out of business themselves after their TV business collapsed into flatness.
throAU
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Re: N64 Core

Unread post by throAU »

FoxbatStargazer wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 12:40 pm Carts truly crippled the N64 from a consumer perspective, it missed a lot of 3rd party attention for that reason. That had to play in to the muddy textures too. Then Nintendo repeats basically the same mistake with Gamecube minidiscs.

Its extra funny trying to put the 32X over the N64 though. The most impressive showing has to be what, Star Wars arcade, with its flat unshaded polygons?
Yeah as someone who “was there” and had both a ps1 (mine) and an n64 in the house (housemates) the carts were a huge limiter.

N64 had superior load times and graphics hardware on paper but in reality ps1 games had storage for more textures, way better audio, way more content (e.g. FF7) etc.

My view (and I’m sure I’m not alone) was that the ps1 had more “mature” audience games on it that looked less cartoonish due to the texture quality and space for audio. Sure the n64 could do AA and texture filtering but the limited size of (and space for) the textures gave n64 game textures a universal blurry look.

As above though the n64 had various components running at 90+ megahertz which is beyond the de10-nano if I understand correctly, irrespective of its rambus dram concerns.

N64 is an interesting console as the generation after that had more traditional style GPUs that are easier to abstract and emulate better via software. Imho it’s probably the last console where FPGA will make much difference vs software emulation.
KremlingKuthroat19
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Re: N64 Core

Unread post by KremlingKuthroat19 »

Larkhainan wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 12:56 am
AmanoJacu wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:52 pm At least thanks to the cartridges, Nintendo didn't have to worry about the massive piracy that crippled the PSX (and Saturn) in some markets. Although some could argue that increased PSSX popularity, I still think it hurt games sales.
Attach rate + total sales doesn't pan out on this one. The PSX destroyed the N64. Nintendo fucked around and found out.

Owing to cartridges a bunch of games aren't even 64-bit. It was a huge mistake and without the Wii (and Switch) nailing the casual market Nintendo probably would have gone the way of Sega after fucking around so hard. Especially funny given without Sega fucking the Sonic 2 dev team and the SNES CD joint venture Sony probably doesn't even go a third as strong or goes out of business themselves after their TV business collapsed into flatness.
These takes always make me cringe. Nintendo would've never left the hardware market even if the Switch and Wii flopped. The reason is that they have an essential monopoly on the handheld market, and this is before and after smartphones. The closest competition they've ever gotten in the handheld space is the PSP which sold 80M while the DS sold 155M. Worst-case scenario is that the would've exited the home console space and still made their handhelds to this day. Sega failed because they're terribly managed and their core arcade business died in the late 90s and early 00's.

Btw, how is the Switch a casual market? I get the Wii, but it's odd how some people hate Nintendo so much because they're different. I'd argue that the PS5 is much more casual than the Switch. That's where all the Madden, FIFA, 2K, Fortnite, and COD casuals play.

The PSX would've beaten the N64 still regardless of cartridges. Their marketing budget was way above Nintendo's. If the N64 had CDs, in the best-case scenario, Sony would've just outsold the N64 2-1 as opposed to 3-1.

Anyways, the N64 and DS are 2 cores that can't fit on the MiSTer that I'm anticipating as far as the future of FPGA.
Slipard
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Re: N64 Core

Unread post by Slipard »

If you take numbers, from what I heard at the time – please correct me if needed –, while the N64 didn't sell as much as the PS1, it was way more profitable to Nintendo.

A console success is basically measured by two factors:
1. How many units you sell;
2. How much money you make with it.

And the second is not compared between two consoles, but between how much it cost to the maker (investment, promotional, manufacturing costs...) and how much they got back. On that side, Nintendo was happy, because they made very good money with the console and the first party games.
(But yet again, the numbers I got was on the time, just after the N64 EOL, my memory may trick me.)

As for the first, the PS1 outsold everyone and was the first part of "killing" Sega on the hardware side (the PS2 being the second part, as everybody knows). But the cult following seems to be stronger with the N64 than with the PS1. So, not that bad for the N64.

That said, full disclosure: I never gave a crap about the N64, although I love Nintendo. And I also never gave a crap for the PS1, just a little bit for the Saturn. But at that time, I have to say I wasn't much happy with how the video market shifted. It was the Dreamcast that got me back in.
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Wave
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Re: N64 Core

Unread post by Wave »

Slipard wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 5:08 am That said, full disclosure: I never gave a crap about the N64, although I love Nintendo. And I also never gave a crap for the PS1, just a little bit for the Saturn. But at that time, I have to say I wasn't much happy with how the video market shifted. It was the Dreamcast that got me back in.
Curious what you disliked about gaming's direction then. Did you perhaps see it as a shift toward half-baked 3D and an abandonment of traditional 2D-playing games / 2D artwork?
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Slipard
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Re: N64 Core

Unread post by Slipard »

Wave wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 6:40 am Curious what you disliked about gaming's direction then. Did you perhaps see it as a shift toward half-baked 3D and an abandonment of traditional 2D-playing games / 2D artwork?
That is a part of it, but not only.
Indeed, I do come from the 2D area (arcade, consoles and computers) and my favorite machine remains the Super Famicom. This is the only machine I ever had an actual dream about.

When the Saturn, PlayStation and N64 came, I wasn't much thrilled. Everyone was on these and you bet I had my hands on them as soon as they were released in Japan. But that didn't click. Sure, on one hand, the 3D has always been more of a curiosity to me than anything else. But, on the other hand, 3D wasn't that bad in the beginning. Games were more than playable and I actually enjoyed many 3D games.
The thing is, they lacked depth. They were more elaborate demos, like gimmicks (pun intended), than real games that would embark you on a real journey with a real challenge.
While the Saturn was a pure gamer console, the PlayStation was already establishing casual gaming as the norm. And the N64 was more Nintendo than ever: you bought it for Mario 64/Kart and Zelda, and that was basically it. But there was no dream to it. Zelda on the Super Famicom had the perfect ending of an epic journey, while Zelda on the N64 was just a game. Mario 64 was fun, but, well, as of 2022, 3D controls still aren't as fluent as 2D controls, ie. we still don't do better than Mario 64.
So, yeah, that generation didn't impress much, while Sonic Adventure on the Dreamcast made me think (although, the game is not quite the promised adventure, far from it) and Sakura Taisen 3 made me buy a Dreamcast and got me back in the game, because it was the first game in a very long time, that would leave a bitter taste in your mouth, the same taste you get when you finish reading a good book and you are sad to let the characters and their universe go. The yummy bitter taste.
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