3D Glasses Support via Anaglyph (3D Movie Red/Cyan) Glasses

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3D Glasses Support via Anaglyph (3D Movie Red/Cyan) Glasses

Unread post by eightbit »

Can this possibly be added? I have only seen this implemented in software emulation once with an emulator named "Dega":

https://segaretro.org/Dega

I am really surprised no other emulator (that I know of) implemented this code.

As many are aware (or maybe not) the 3D games on the Sega Master System required a pair of 3D shutter glasses and an adapter that plugged into the card slot on the master system. The 3D was really advanced for the time and very close to how 3D works now with modern 3D TV sets and their glasses.

But, it is not possible to emulate or simulate this on a modern display as that 3D shutter technology relied on a CRT TV. Those glasses will not work on modern displays just as with light guns.

But, old fashioned anaglyph (red and blue movie glasses from the old days) work fine on any modern display.

The Dega emulator author somehow made that happen, and all of the 3D games (there are only a handful, but still) worked fine and displayed in 3D using a simple pair of movie glasses. It wasn't exactly the same as the original glasses of course, but at least the experience of the 3D effect was there and it worked perfectly.

I know it is a long shot, but can this option somehow be implemented into the SMS core? I am not holding my breath, but I figured I would ask as this is something I would love to see.
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Re: 3D Glasses Support via Anaglyph (3D Movie Red/Cyan) Glasses

Unread post by lnielsen »

Interesting - looking at the eight 3D games, 3 of them have a 2D option, one (Missile Defense) needs the "light phaser". Line of Fire seems to be somewhat crippled compared to the Sega X Board version which could also support Outrun (maybe someone can look at that core). A couple seem to be unique to this platform. I understand your interest.
Don't give up on the light gun... how about something like this https://www.sindenlightgun.com/ This seems to be optical based using a white border around the screen for orientation. I am sure there are other lightgun possibilities if there is enough interest.
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Re: 3D Glasses Support via Anaglyph (3D Movie Red/Cyan) Glasses

Unread post by eightbit »

The person who wrote the Dega emulator (Dave) is also the person who wrote Final Burn....which later was taken over and became Final Burn Alpha (FBA) years later.

When Dave added this to Dega back in 2004 I was mesmerized. I was sure it would be copied and added to all SMS emulators from there on, but it never did. Not even libretro has it. Dave certainly did something really unique back then, and it is a reason I still hang on to his emulator to this day ;)

But, to see it working on the MiSTer core would be extremely cool. Maze Hunter 3D was one of my favorite games and really made good use of the top down 3D.

Ohh, and thanks for that lightgun link. That is really awesome!
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Re: 3D Glasses Support via Anaglyph (3D Movie Red/Cyan) Glasses

Unread post by Grabulosaure »

The NES had a similar 3D accessory with LCD glasses. Only sold in Japan.

At least 2 games for "Famicom 3D system" had an US version with Red/Blue anaglyph mode :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rad_Racer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_3-D_B ... orldRunner

I have made a version of SMS and NES cores for "modern" 3D TV which shows 3D games as side-by side pictures.
3D modes relied on alternating frames like interlaced video.
The stupid and flickery method would be to colour frames alternatively in red or blue.
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Re: 3D Glasses Support via Anaglyph (3D Movie Red/Cyan) Glasses

Unread post by eightbit »

That's great! I will have to test your cores. Thanks for the heads up.

Yeah, as far as I recall you would activate the red/blue on those NES titles with start+select. It's been so long but that is what I remember ;)
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Re: 3D Glasses Support via Anaglyph (3D Movie Red/Cyan) Glasses

Unread post by eightbit »

I downloaded your cores. Pretty cool. Unfortunately I do not have a 3D TV (never have!) but I will hang on to these just in case that changes someday. Thank you. I see how the 3D works (side by side options) which is pretty cool.

Still I would really love to see the old school anaglyph option added to the core someday if possible. This way at least a form of the 3D can be enjoyed on any TV set.
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Re: 3D Glasses Support via Anaglyph (3D Movie Red/Cyan) Glasses

Unread post by retrorepair »

Thanks to the user I/O port, support for 3d glasses like these would be quite easy to add. That said, the glasses aren't easy to find these days, even the ones made for PCs.
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Re: 3D Glasses Support via Anaglyph (3D Movie Red/Cyan) Glasses

Unread post by monkie »

Grabulosaure wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:05 pm I have made a version of SMS and NES cores for "modern" 3D TV which shows 3D games as side-by side pictures.
3D modes relied on alternating frames like interlaced video.
Awesome, thanks for making those.
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Re: 3D Glasses Support via Anaglyph (3D Movie Red/Cyan) Glasses

Unread post by Moondandy »

I have a 3D TV so going to give these a go soon, didn't realise this was even possible!

Are there any plans to add this functionality into the official NES and SMS cores?
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Re: 3D Glasses Support via Anaglyph (3D Movie Red/Cyan) Glasses

Unread post by Grabulosaure »

@Moondandy

It's a bit difficult as these cores uses modified versions of the framework and scaler. Requires more work to keep in sync.
I should update these 3D cores anyway.
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Re: 3D Glasses Support via Anaglyph (3D Movie Red/Cyan) Glasses

Unread post by LamerDeluxe »

Could you also add 3D over/under mode as well? That works much better with passive 3D monitors, as they already halve the vertical resolution, also the 3D detail is in the horizontal resolution.

I still have the Sega shutter glasses, made an interface for them to use them on my Amiga in the nineties.
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Re: 3D Glasses Support via Anaglyph (3D Movie Red/Cyan) Glasses

Unread post by GammaDev »

I finally got a chance to try this on my LG 3dtv and they both work pretty well. The SMS definitely has the edge in terms of 3D effect The NES titles had so little 3D effects, I had to take the glasses off to verify there was any 3D effect present. I don't know if that was just Nintendo being really concerned over eyestrain or if their glasses suffered from ghosting but they seemed almost scared to have any significant separation in the image. It was basically not worth the effort. The only game that had any noticeable effect was "JJ", but it was still almost invisible unless you looked for it and it effectively disappeared once you started playing.

The SMS has some really strong (in some cases too strong) 3D effects. In fact, I thought there was something wrong because the separation was so severe I had almost had to cross my eyes to not get ghosting. Then I turned on 3D Borders and that made a huge difference in putting the 3D into the comfortable range. The standout title was surprisingly Maze Hunter 3D. The 3D effect was very good in selling the height of the walls and the depth of the pits. I will definitely spend more time with this title.

The one SMS that still gave me trouble even after using the 3D Border option was Blade Eagle. For some reason this always has ghosting- and by that I mean I see two copies of moving objects on each half of the screen with the glasses off. It's like the scanline de-interleaving is getting confused or something. I thought it might be a PAL vs. NTSC, but switching to PAL didn't consistently fix the issue and the play and sound effects reinforced that this "World" rom wasn't meant to run at PAL speeds.

Also, every now and then the core seems to get off by a field so that the left and right aren't synchronized. Instead of frames going 1L/1R, 2L/2R, 3L/3R you get something like 2L/1R, 3L/2R, 4L/3R (if that makes sense).

But overall, this is a fantastic core. The one big improvement would be to add 3D-packed frames support. I figured this was impossible with this board, but I looked at the DE10 Nano documentation and the SoC DOES in fact support HDMI 1.4, 3D modes and all. This would be awesome to add because it would mean you wouldn't have to fumble with the remote to manually switch from 2d->3d every time. It also means the OSD would be readable in 3D. I tried to look at the core source to see where the framebuffer was set up, but being a total noob to MiSTer, nothing immediately jumped out. I wasn't sure if individual cores even had the ability to change the display format or if that is something that has to be done in the MiSTer "OS" or whatever the Core loader is called. I guess when I have a free weekend, I'll have to poke around and try to educate myself on how to get a DE10 Nano to output frame-packed 3D.

Who knows, maybe we can get this all worked out and make native 3D formats a thing by the time someone ports over a Virtual Boy Core (if you have an Oculus headset, there's an excellent emulator that will even work on the uber-cheap, soon-to-be-discontinued Oculus Go).
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Re: 3D Glasses Support via Anaglyph (3D Movie Red/Cyan) Glasses

Unread post by Grabulosaure »

@GammaDev
Thank you for testing and reporting issues.
These cores needs to be updated to latest fixes from official NES and SMS cores.
GammaDev wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:43 pm The one big improvement would be to add 3D-packed frames support.
The goal is for the TV to automatically switch between 2D and 3D modes?
There seems to be registers in the HDMI transmitter to select 3D images, but it is limited to 30Hz, or reduced resolution due to bandwidth limitations.
Changing video mode, updating the transmitter and PLL frequency isn't the simplest solution.
(Original SMS and NES cores also generated alternatively left and right frames like interlaced video, also had 25/30Hz refresh rate.)

Did you try the "3D side by side" option "Always"?
In that mode, the side by side mode is kept for 2D, allowing to keep screen in 3D mode for title screens.
OSD could be moved to one side or duplicated for easier reading.
More options may be needed to reduce image size ("shrink" option). These games were designed for small CRT TVs, not large LCD screens.

LamerDeluxe wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:15 pm Could you also add 3D over/under mode as well? That works much better with passive 3D monitors, as they already halve the vertical resolution, also the 3D detail is in the horizontal resolution.
The resolution of these cores is quite low, so halving horizontal resolution doesn't change much image quality.
Current 3D implementation hacks the deinterlacing hardware to show lines two by two. Top/bottom 3D is a bit more complex, but doable.
LamerDeluxe wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:15 pm I still have the Sega shutter glasses, made an interface for them to use them on my Amiga in the nineties.
Could be possible to use with MiSTer using an adapter to the IO board and analog output.
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Re: 3D Glasses Support via Anaglyph (3D Movie Red/Cyan) Glasses

Unread post by LamerDeluxe »

Grabulosaure wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:53 pm The resolution of these cores is quite low, so halving horizontal resolution doesn't change much image quality.
Ah yes, of course, I didn't think of that. I usually have this problem with videos.
Current 3D implementation hacks the deinterlacing hardware to show lines two by two. Top/bottom 3D is a bit more complex, but doable.
Would be cool if it is not too much trouble.
Could be possible to use with MiSTer using an adapter to the IO board and analog output.
Wow, yes, good point, if the DB9 adapter is complete enough that should actually work. Mine doesn't support paddles, so the output signal will probably also not work.
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Re: 3D Glasses Support via Anaglyph (3D Movie Red/Cyan) Glasses

Unread post by GammaDev »

Grabulosaure wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:53 pm @GammaDev
Thank you for testing and reporting issues.
These cores needs to be updated to latest fixes from official NES and SMS cores.
GammaDev wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:43 pm The one big improvement would be to add 3D-packed frames support.
The goal is for the TV to automatically switch between 2D and 3D modes?
There seems to be registers in the HDMI transmitter to select 3D images, but it is limited to 30Hz, or reduced resolution due to bandwidth limitations.
Changing video mode, updating the transmitter and PLL frequency isn't the simplest solution.
(Original SMS and NES cores also generated alternatively left and right frames like interlaced video, also had 25/30Hz refresh rate.)
The 1280x720@60 frame-packed mode is the HDMI's 3D "gaming" format, and would be more than enough the 3D modes on these 8-bit consoles (it was good enough for the PS3 and 360).
"Auto" works great and "Always" doesn't really add anything new (I think most of the titles had 3D title screens and "Auto" handled them fine). It's more about having to manually toggle the tv into and out of 3D mode when using the OSD to load new titles or switch cores. I often play 2D and 3D titles in the same session, so having to keep the tv remote at the ready (and find it in the dark) is an extra bit of pain when you're used to the tv automatically switching in and out of 3D when watching movies or playing a 3D title on a more modern console.

Briefly looking over the HDMI spec, the half SBS mode that you are outputting is supported by HDMI, but it seems to be optional for manufacturers while the frame-packed mode is required by all devices. It would be interesting to see if sending the InfoFrame with the correct 3D_Structure filled out is enough to get 3Dtvs to auto-switch to the correct side-by-side mode.
https://etmriwi.home.xs4all.nl/forum/hd ... action.pdf
The OSD would still be messed up, but as you said adding a new frame-packed mode would be a lot more work.
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Re: 3D Glasses Support via Anaglyph (3D Movie Red/Cyan) Glasses

Unread post by dtungsten »

Wow, thanks Grabulosaure, this is wonderful. I've been wanting to play SMS 3D on my TV for many years. The left and right images swap places when SMS has the borders, though. I can flip it on my TV but it's annoying that the are swapped from the normal mode. The 3D on Blade Eagle and Zaxxon don't seem to work correctly though. Very strange. I don't expect that to be an easy fix though. Oh, I noticed a strange effect in Maze hunter, that sprites moving to the right seemed to elevate slightly when they should not. I'm pretty sure the original hardware did not do that. Still, this is fantastic!
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Re: 3D Glasses Support via Anaglyph (3D Movie Red/Cyan) Glasses

Unread post by seastalker »

...it was asked in the My Life in Gaming massive MiSTer video and I love this idea:

Any chance of getting 3d glasses support added using the tape-in 3.55mm input?
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Re: 3D Glasses Support via Anaglyph (3D Movie Red/Cyan) Glasses

Unread post by LamerDeluxe »

seastalker wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 4:09 pm ...it was asked in the My Life in Gaming massive MiSTer video and I love this idea:

Any chance of getting 3d glasses support added using the tape-in 3.55mm input?
That wouldn't work, because the tape-in connector is only an input. And from what I remember, the glasses use 14 volt signals to make the LCD shutters turn black.
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Re: 3D Glasses Support via Anaglyph (3D Movie Red/Cyan) Glasses

Unread post by seastalker »

I guess I incorrectly thought the SMS glasses adapter's 3.55 jack was an input being that it 'accepted' the 3D glasses. Now that I think about it, the SMS must be sending signals out TO the glasses for the effect to work. I never thought to update my childlike view from the late 80s with a tech viewpoint in modern times. :)

I do hope an authentic Sega 3D experience can be added to Mister SOMEHOW. Until then, I'll enjoy my real SMS hardware for this use case.
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Re: 3D Glasses Support via Anaglyph (3D Movie Red/Cyan) Glasses

Unread post by LamerDeluxe »

seastalker wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 11:54 pm I guess I incorrectly thought the SMS glasses adapter's 3.55 jack was an input being that it 'accepted' the 3D glasses. Now that I think about it, the SMS must be sending signals out TO the glasses for the effect to work. I never thought to update my childlike view from the late 80s with a tech viewpoint in modern times. :)

I do hope an authentic Sega 3D experience can be added to Mister SOMEHOW. Until then, I'll enjoy my real SMS hardware for this use case.
I used my Sega 3D glasses with my Amiga in the nineties. There was a description, somewhere on the internet, describing how you could build an adapter that connected to the joystick port. It uses a 9 volt battery.
In theory, a similar adapter could be built for MiSTer, connected to the user port or maybe even as a USB adapter.
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Re: 3D Glasses Support via Anaglyph (3D Movie Red/Cyan) Glasses

Unread post by seastalker »

Wow! What 3d Amiga games did you play? I didn't know there were any!
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Re: 3D Glasses Support via Anaglyph (3D Movie Red/Cyan) Glasses

Unread post by LamerDeluxe »

seastalker wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 12:10 pm Wow! What 3d Amiga games did you play? I didn't know there were any!
There were one or more example games for the X-Specs 3D glasses, which were much more expensive. But mostly I used it for rendering 3D images/animations with the Imagine ray-tracing software. It used the even and odd lines of an interlaced image for your left and right eye, similar to how a modern passive 3D display works.
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Re: 3D Glasses Support via Anaglyph (3D Movie Red/Cyan) Glasses

Unread post by SpotAnime »

Resurrecting this topic - any interest in updating the 3D cores with the latest fixes?
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Re: 3D Glasses Support via Anaglyph (3D Movie Red/Cyan) Glasses

Unread post by dtungsten »

The 3D on Blade Eagle and Zaxxon actually is okay, I think they show more ghosting due to the dark background. Adjusting the viewing angle and such alleviates it. I'd love it if this got merged into the official cores.

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Re: 3D Glasses Support via Anaglyph (3D Movie Red/Cyan) Glasses

Unread post by LamerDeluxe »

dtungsten wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 2:36 am

The 3D on Blade Eagle and Zaxxon actually is okay, I think they show more ghosting due to the dark background. Adjusting the viewing angle and such alleviates it. I'd love it if this got merged into the official cores.

Agreed, would be nice to not have this support in separate cores, it works really well.

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