Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

ReadyPlayerTwo
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:40 pm
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 7 times

Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by ReadyPlayerTwo »

This was the one computer i always wanted as a kid, got to play with one for only a few short hours when i was much younger??

So is it possible on MiSTer? Do we have enough room on the board?
FoxbatStargazer
Top Contributor
Posts: 994
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:44 pm
Has thanked: 309 times
Been thanked: 228 times

Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by FoxbatStargazer »

We have Amiga 1200 with vampires, I'd be shocked if there isn't room. There just has to be someone interested in figuring out all the additional chips.

Main thing about Falcon is the really limited software library. But maybe there is some interest...
benbooth493
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon May 25, 2020 6:09 am
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by benbooth493 »

One of the things about MiSTer that I love is "owning" the machines I couldn't as a kid. A Falcon 030 core would be amazing.
kolla
Posts: 188
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:56 am
Has thanked: 17 times
Been thanked: 33 times

Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by kolla »

It requires quite a few things that don't exist currently:
* full 68030 (not EC) softcore instead of the current 68020 tg68
* 56001 DSP softcore
and possibly also 68882 softcore (with 80bit precision)
Michael1260
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:42 am
Been thanked: 10 times

Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by Michael1260 »

and then, put the 68030 in Minimig :-)
Fularu
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:25 am

Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by Fularu »

kolla wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 2:27 pm It requires quite a few things that don't exist currently:
* full 68030 (not EC) softcore instead of the current 68020 tg68
* 56001 DSP softcore
and possibly also 68882 softcore (with 80bit precision)
Isn't Mike working on a 040 core that he will make publicly available? That should alleviate the need for a 68882 core
User avatar
ragnar
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu May 28, 2020 10:16 am
Been thanked: 10 times

Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by ragnar »

Don't forget some more special ic's like combel, dma or videl. i'm not pretty sure it will not fit inside misters fpga
• FireBee • Falcon030/040/060 • MiSTer • TT • (Mega)STe • Suska III-B • Suska III-C • (Mega)ST •
User avatar
Chris23235
Top Contributor
Posts: 841
Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 8:45 pm
Has thanked: 106 times
Been thanked: 167 times

Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by Chris23235 »

I am sure it would fit, it seems Jotego thinks it would fit into the MiST. He talked about the possibilities recently.
Lisko
Posts: 88
Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 10:45 pm
Has thanked: 17 times
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by Lisko »

Michael1260 wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 2:36 pm and then, put the 68030 in Minimig :-)
And then, we can die happy :lol:
User avatar
ron
Posts: 159
Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 7:02 pm
Has thanked: 67 times
Been thanked: 58 times

Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by ron »

http://www.experiment-s.de/de/progress/

someone remembers the SUSKA board ?
User avatar
ragnar
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu May 28, 2020 10:16 am
Been thanked: 10 times

Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by ragnar »

ron wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:21 am someone remembers the SUSKA board ?
I do and i have one Suska III-C
• FireBee • Falcon030/040/060 • MiSTer • TT • (Mega)STe • Suska III-B • Suska III-C • (Mega)ST •
kolla
Posts: 188
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:56 am
Has thanked: 17 times
Been thanked: 33 times

Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by kolla »

Fularu wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:10 pm Isn't Mike working on a 040 core that he will make publicly available? That should alleviate the need for a 68882 core
Haven’t really heard about this, but it depends what kind of 040 core it potentially is replicating, whether it includes FPU at all. 68EC040 had neither FPU nor MMU, 68LC040 had MMU, but no FPU.
Fularu
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:25 am

Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by Fularu »

kolla wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:12 am
Fularu wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:10 pm Isn't Mike working on a 040 core that he will make publicly available? That should alleviate the need for a 68882 core
Haven’t really heard about this, but it depends what kind of 040 core it potentially is replicating, whether it includes FPU at all. 68EC040 had neither FPU nor MMU, 68LC040 had MMU, but no FPU.
He said both would be there (FPU and MMU). Most productivity tools on the Amiga need both anyway so not having them would be rather moot.
CFTech
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:38 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by CFTech »

FoxbatStargazer wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:59 am Main thing about Falcon is the really limited software library.
I disagree. There is huge amount of falcon specific software, maily a production one but also demos, players etc..
In addition, the used machines are pretty expensive and there is still not even 100% software emulation available.

Anyway, making a proper F030 core would be a challenge. One can get Atari STE core as a starting point and then add full 68030 with MMU, DSP 56001 RISC, video with 256 and truecolor modes, 16bit audio I/O with routing matrix, NV RAM etc.
shertz
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 8:12 pm
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 25 times

Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by shertz »

I would be more excited about a Falcon core then a PS1, Saturn, Lynx and CPS2 cores COMBINED!!
User avatar
Moondandy
Top Contributor
Posts: 535
Joined: Mon May 25, 2020 2:14 am
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 97 times

Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by Moondandy »

There is a growing interest in using MiSTer for creating music, so a Falcon would likely be of more interest to musicians over gamers.
moebiusrising
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:00 am
Has thanked: 2 times

Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by moebiusrising »

Moondandy wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 7:57 pm There is a growing interest in using MiSTer for creating music, so a Falcon would likely be of more interest to musicians over gamers.
My MiSTer is now MIDI’d using direct I/O, which works great, I would be over the moon if there was an ability to run Cubase Audio Falcon (for hard disk recording) but it seems too niche and possibly a hurdle to get audio input working. I can always dream though.
Televicious
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon May 25, 2020 8:23 pm
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by Televicious »

I would love to support the dev on this. Finding a Falcon let alone affording one is pretty tough these days. The 040 isn't as compatible as 030. MMU stuff was simplified. It would overall be better to do an 030 with the seperate 68882. Sign me up though.
CFTech
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:38 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by CFTech »

Neither FPU nor MMU is mandatory for most Falcon audio software. The MMU is used only for memory protection in Freemint OS and virtual memory managers for TOS (like Outside). FPU is utilised by some demos and production software.
throAU
Posts: 181
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:06 am
Has thanked: 229 times
Been thanked: 27 times

Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by throAU »

CFTech wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:10 pm Neither FPU nor MMU is mandatory for most Falcon audio software. The MMU is used only for memory protection in Freemint OS and virtual memory managers for TOS (like Outside). FPU is utilised by some demos and production software.
If that's the case, the 020 and 030 are same instruction set, and unless the OS is doing explicit detection for 030, it should just work with a simulated 020 (which in mister is faster than a real 030 anyway).
guddler
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:37 pm
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 5 times

Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by guddler »

I know at the moment there are a bunch of things missing that would be needed for the Falcon to become a reality on the MiSTer, but I'd certainly be another that would love to see it. The ST is a machine that I've never tried. I kind of fancied it but always knew that I wouldn't be satisfied until I'd ended up at a fully tricked out Falcon. After building my own 060/RTG based Amiga, that's a rabbit-hole I just didn't fancy even looking down, let alone going down! I dread to think what I ended up spending in parts to build that Amiga (and by parts I mean components, SMT mostly - I didn't just "build" a machine by buying various add-ons for a 1200 or 4000)
CFTech
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:38 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by CFTech »

throAU wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:25 am If that's the case, the 020 and 030 are same instruction set, and unless the OS is doing explicit detection for 030
So there is already an STE core with TG68, available? I only know about experimental TG68 support in MiST core.

Anyway, with a STEroids core with TG68/020 there will be a good chance to make a Falcon TOS4.4 work with only a minor changes in the core.
User avatar
Chris23235
Top Contributor
Posts: 841
Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 8:45 pm
Has thanked: 106 times
Been thanked: 167 times

Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by Chris23235 »

CFTech wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:25 am
throAU wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:25 am If that's the case, the 020 and 030 are same instruction set, and unless the OS is doing explicit detection for 030
So there is already an STE core with TG68, available? I only know about experimental TG68 support in MiST core.

Anyway, with a STEroids core with TG68/020 there will be a good chance to make a Falcon TOS4.4 work with only a minor changes in the core.
There still is the need to integrate the Motorola 56001 DSP , Videl, Combell and the Falcon DMA chips into the core which would be pretty major additions.

Here is an overview about the chips in the Falcon030:

https://mikrosk.github.io/doitarchive/doitf030/04.htm

I think a core author would have to invest a lot of work to get the Falcon030 up and running.
CFTech
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:38 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by CFTech »

Definitely.
User avatar
ragnar
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu May 28, 2020 10:16 am
Been thanked: 10 times

Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by ragnar »

I'm not that optimistic. I'm in contact with Wolfgamg Förster (from Suska) and he said that his full featured 68030 (CPU, Cache, MMU, FPU, ability to add an FPU and pipelined structur [whatever this means]) needs 55.000 LEs. A light version still needs 32.000 LEs. Now, do your math. What do yout think, how big are Videl, Combel, DMA and such. Maybe we can haz a Sparrow
• FireBee • Falcon030/040/060 • MiSTer • TT • (Mega)STe • Suska III-B • Suska III-C • (Mega)ST •
User avatar
legacypixels
Posts: 91
Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 9:20 pm
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 25 times

Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by legacypixels »

Don't forget there's a 56000 DSP in there too.
US based seller of MiSTer addon boards. Visit https://www.legacypixels.com/mister
User avatar
Chris23235
Top Contributor
Posts: 841
Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 8:45 pm
Has thanked: 106 times
Been thanked: 167 times

Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by Chris23235 »

I don't think size is such a problem. The whole Amiga core uses about 1/3 of the MiSTer fpga and it comes with 68000 and 68020 support and AGA graphics. So a Falcon shouldn't take up 3 times of this.
daschewie
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon May 25, 2020 6:44 pm

Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by daschewie »

Chris23235 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:53 am I don't think size is such a problem. The whole Amiga core uses about 1/3 of the MiSTer fpga and it comes with 68000 and 68020 support and AGA graphics. So a Falcon shouldn't take up 3 times of this.
Back in the 90's Moore's Law was truly in effect. So transistor counts were going up exponentially.

An interesting piece of trivia: The original Motorola 68000 was named after its transistor count (68,000).
Unfortunately the 68030 has a transistor count of 273,000, making it 4 times larger than the 68000.
The 68040 has 1,200,000 transistors making it 17 times larger and so on.

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Transistor_count
Bas
Top Contributor
Posts: 518
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:36 pm
Has thanked: 60 times
Been thanked: 225 times

Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by Bas »

How many of these transistors were cache?
User avatar
Chris23235
Top Contributor
Posts: 841
Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 8:45 pm
Has thanked: 106 times
Been thanked: 167 times

Re: Is the Atari Falcon 030 possible in MiSTer?

Unread post by Chris23235 »

daschewie wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 5:41 am
Chris23235 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:53 am I don't think size is such a problem. The whole Amiga core uses about 1/3 of the MiSTer fpga and it comes with 68000 and 68020 support and AGA graphics. So a Falcon shouldn't take up 3 times of this.
Back in the 90's Moore's Law was truly in effect. So transistor counts were going up exponentially.

An interesting piece of trivia: The original Motorola 68000 was named after its transistor count (68,000).
Unfortunately the 68030 has a transistor count of 273,000, making it 4 times larger than the 68000.
The 68040 has 1,200,000 transistors making it 17 times larger and so on.

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Transistor_count
1.2 million transistors is roughly what the i486 uses and this CPU fits so comfortably into the MiSTer FPGA that there is also room for both Soundblaster and SVGA. The 273000 transistors of the 68030 are no indicator that the core can't fit into the MiSTer. They are roughly the same as the combined 68000 and 68020 transistor count and both chips are implemented into Minimig at the same time.
Post Reply