MiSTer FPGA Forum

I believe this is the first “mainstream” publication that has devoted this much space to discussing MiSTer?

BUILDING THE ULTIMATE RETRO COMPUTER —
The MiSTer FPGA project recreates classic hardware

Get ready for some new users :)

Too much coverage might damage the availability of the DE10.

or encourage more developers to create more cores

More cores always welcome, but the board benefits from a specific status that is abused and is even infringing the licence it is sold under, so it definitely shouldn't be taken as granted and eternal. :-/

Slipard wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:04 pm Too much coverage might damage the availability of the DE10.

And with the silicon shortage we're already facing, expect the DE-10s to go up a lot more as a result due to the potential spike in demand combined with the shortage of components.

With more demand, wouldn't it make more business sense to ramp up production and keep the price as is or lower it?

Slipard wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:49 pm More cores always welcome, but the board benefits from a specific status that is abused and is even infringing the licence it is sold under, so it definitely shouldn't be taken as granted and eternal. :-/

This line of BS needs to stop.

If you're not buying it under the cost reduced academic license, you're free to do with your DE-10 Nano board as you please. The non-academic boards cost $30 more.

softtest9 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:58 pm With more demand, wouldn't it make more business sense to ramp up production and keep the price as is or lower it?

The entire industry is squeezed for production capacity right now, so even if they wanted to ramp up production they may not be able to.


The other problem is the DE-10 is cheap because it is meant as a learning tool. You can't even buy the Cyclone-V part for the price of a whole DE-10. Bulk production would discount that some, but it's probably a break-even product at best. The hope is you'd use it as a eval/learning platform and then go on to build 'real' products with similar FPGA parts, thus generating sales+revenue. There's likely little motivation to drop the price.

The MiSTer project is probably helping to get more people into FPGA programming, so the DE-10 still partly serves its purpose with it.

softtest9 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:58 pm With more demand, wouldn't it make more business sense to ramp up production and keep the price as is or lower it?

Yes it would, if there wasn't an extreme shortage of components used to make them. If automakers in the US shut down production lines of cars due to component shortages, you can't just "ramp up production". The world right now is waiting for a ramping up of production. It's kind of like telling someone that is in a famine to just have more food.

zakk4223 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:32 pm

softtest9 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:58 pm With more demand, wouldn't it make more business sense to ramp up production and keep the price as is or lower it?

The entire industry is squeezed for production capacity right now, so even if they wanted to ramp up production they may not be able to.


The other problem is the DE-10 is cheap because it is meant as a learning tool. You can't even buy the Cyclone-V part for the price of a whole DE-10. Bulk production would discount that some, but it's probably a break-even product at best. The hope is you'd use it as a eval/learning platform and then go on to build 'real' products with similar FPGA parts, thus generating sales+revenue. There's likely little motivation to drop the price.

Once a sale is made, you are free to do what you want with your physical property.

zakk4223 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:32 pm The other problem is the DE-10 is cheap because it is meant as a learning tool. You can't even buy the Cyclone-V part for the price of a whole DE-10. Bulk production would discount that some, but it's probably a break-even product at best. The hope is you'd use it as a eval/learning platform and then go on to build 'real' products with similar FPGA parts, thus generating sales+revenue. There's likely little motivation to drop the price.

lupin3rd wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:39 pm

softtest9 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:58 pm With more demand, wouldn't it make more business sense to ramp up production and keep the price as is or lower it?

Yes it would, if there wasn't an extreme shortage of components used to make them. If automakers in the US shut down production lines of cars due to component shortages, you can't just "ramp up production". The world right now is waiting for a ramping up of production. It's kind of like telling someone that is in a famine to just have more food.

And this is why the BS is not coming from me.

dmckean wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:20 pm This line of BS needs to stop.

If you're not buying it under the cost reduced academic license, you're free to do with your DE-10 Nano board as you please. The non-academic boards cost $30 more.

So, yeah, do your business, make your profit by parasitizing another company through the abuse of their system and when the source will be dried, well, you will take responsibility, won't you?

Slipard wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:49 pm the board benefits from a specific status that is abused and is even infringing the licence it is sold under

Do you have a source for this information? Doesn't sound realistic that Terasic is infringing on their license with Intel for this long. Or do you mean that you have been purchasing them for the academic price with stolen credentials? I have no idea what you mean...

Slipard wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:46 pm make your profit by parasitizing another company through the abuse of their system

This is some really strange language you are using to describe purchasing something for retail price that the vendor is selling it for. Unless you'd like to clarify what you mean more specifically...

Slipard wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:46 pm

zakk4223 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:32 pm The other problem is the DE-10 is cheap because it is meant as a learning tool. You can't even buy the Cyclone-V part for the price of a whole DE-10. Bulk production would discount that some, but it's probably a break-even product at best. The hope is you'd use it as a eval/learning platform and then go on to build 'real' products with similar FPGA parts, thus generating sales+revenue. There's likely little motivation to drop the price.

lupin3rd wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:39 pm

softtest9 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:58 pm With more demand, wouldn't it make more business sense to ramp up production and keep the price as is or lower it?

Yes it would, if there wasn't an extreme shortage of components used to make them. If automakers in the US shut down production lines of cars due to component shortages, you can't just "ramp up production". The world right now is waiting for a ramping up of production. It's kind of like telling someone that is in a famine to just have more food.

And this is why the BS is not coming from me.

dmckean wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:20 pm This line of BS needs to stop.

If you're not buying it under the cost reduced academic license, you're free to do with your DE-10 Nano board as you please. The non-academic boards cost $30 more.

So, yeah, do your business, make your profit by parasitizing another company through the abuse of their system and when the source will be dried, well, you will take responsibility, won't you?

darksakul wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:42 pm Once a sale is made, you are free to do what you want with your physical property.

FYI, the Carebears are NOT good teachers when it comes to economics.

Anyway, I made my point and I am out of the topic. Do your homework, try to go beyond the childish "I paid so I do what I want" (wrong on almost all levels) and watch Idiocracy as many times as needed to understand what the problem is.

(Hint: everything is already in the topic.)

Anyway, sooner or later, the MiSTer will have to switch hardware platform, so it is just a matter of accelerating the inevitable.

Slipard wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:49 pm FYI, the Carebears are NOT good teachers when it comes to economics.

What are you claiming, specifically? Are you suggesting that we are attacking poor lil' Terasic by buying things they are selling at a retail price, and should stop doing it?

darksakul wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:42 pm

zakk4223 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:32 pm

softtest9 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:58 pm With more demand, wouldn't it make more business sense to ramp up production and keep the price as is or lower it?

The entire industry is squeezed for production capacity right now, so even if they wanted to ramp up production they may not be able to.


The other problem is the DE-10 is cheap because it is meant as a learning tool. You can't even buy the Cyclone-V part for the price of a whole DE-10. Bulk production would discount that some, but it's probably a break-even product at best. The hope is you'd use it as a eval/learning platform and then go on to build 'real' products with similar FPGA parts, thus generating sales+revenue. There's likely little motivation to drop the price.

Once a sale is made, you are free to do what you want with your physical property.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying it's sold at either almost no profit (or possibly a loss, no one really knows) as effectively a marketing tool for their FPGA line.
Somewhere, someone decided encouraging a robust hobby scene made good business sense. Same reason there's a free version of Quartus for hobby use.

All I'm saying is given those conditions, they may not be super motivated to ramp up production or drop the price much. Then again, all it takes is someone in marketing to make the case that all these Misters are great for developing 'mindshare' for the Cyclone FPGA products so who knows what could happen.

I'm sure they're already well aware many people are buying them to run MiSTer cores; there's no way that the increased demand went unnoticed by any semi-competent marketing department. If this was a huge problem there are easy ways they could funnel supply to the people they 'preferred' to have them.

Anyway, I made my point and I am out of the topic. Do your homework, try to go beyond the childish "I paid so I do what I want" (wrong on almost all levels) and watch Idiocracy as many times as needed to understand what the problem is.

Oh, for FUCK SAKE, not another "Armchair Lawyer". Had enough of those last year on a reddit thread regarding emulation and how it wasn't "Legal".

The "semiconductor shortage" is a crunch of pandemic'd consumers wanting products with really small nm chips that only TMSC and Samsung can produce. Not raw materials suddenly vanishing or something. Intel's fabs are not similarly crunched because they are stuck on relatively large nm and the Cyclone V is not that kind of chip anyway. Maybe increased demand can shift how Intel prices or markets the thing but its not like the things are going to vanish without a trace. This is still a $200+ DIY project to run systems over two decades old, its never going to hit mainstream like freaking laptops and cars.

MiSTer_Kirk wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:36 pm

Anyway, I made my point and I am out of the topic. Do your homework, try to go beyond the childish "I paid so I do what I want" (wrong on almost all levels) and watch Idiocracy as many times as needed to understand what the problem is.

Oh, for FUCK SAKE, not another "Armchair Lawyer". Had enough of those last year on a reddit thread regarding emulation and how it wasn't "Legal".

A debate as old as time

A one-sided debate that people who make emulators have won a long time ago, over and over though.

aberu wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:01 pm

MiSTer_Kirk wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:36 pm

Anyway, I made my point and I am out of the topic. Do your homework, try to go beyond the childish "I paid so I do what I want" (wrong on almost all levels) and watch Idiocracy as many times as needed to understand what the problem is.

Oh, for FUCK SAKE, not another "Armchair Lawyer". Had enough of those last year on a reddit thread regarding emulation and how it wasn't "Legal".

A debate as old as time

A one-sided debate that people who make emulators have won a long time ago, over and over though.

As old as I remember
One thing I have noticed, it's always those who sit in the Nintendo camp that are the most vocal against emulation, it's like they think it actually harms Nintendo - despite the company being among some of the richest of all the tech companies. But that's for another topic.

Nintendo would not have the VC if it was not for the Emulation scene

PS1 backwards compatibility on the Ps3 exist due to emulators.

This were robbing Triastic is lunacy

More exposure will likely mean more potential FPGA devs taking notice.

I'm not sure what The Verge even is. Some tech blog?

Even if we doubled our userbase, I'm not sure MiSTer usage would even be close to the majority of DE10 sales.

This is daft gatekeeping at its finest.
The article may mean that the DE-10 becomes unavailable because everyone will start buying them????
As a community, do we want to make the project public and successful, growing the userbase or do we want to class ourselves as elitist and make sure that only "special" people can build a MiSTer????

This isn't an analogue device where small batches are made to keep it an exclusive product, it's an open-source project, created to be shared for anyone to use.

Yes, one day, the DE-10 will become unavailable and when that day comes, Sorg will deal with it but whether that happens in 3 months or 3 years it doesn't make a difference.

Regarding the conversation about abusing the educational pricing, are we not all guilty of that?
We've all bought a DE-10 board at a discounted price and have used it for MiSTer and not its intended use.
Seems hypocritical to me

---EOF---

I bought a DE10 from some big electronics retailer, no questions asked. Only later did I find out about its intended purpose. Right now I'm taking my first baby steps with Quartus, Verilog and VHDL. Something I would have never done if it weren't for MiSTer. I never pretended to be in academia or industry and misrepresented myself in any other way. So why is this in any way an issue?

Regarding the conversation about abusing the educational pricing, are we not all guilty of that?

No.

We've all bought a DE-10 board at a discounted price

Nope. Paid a premium on ebay to have it all built for me, I only had to setup the sdcard.

and have used it for MiSTer and not its intended use.

What is, "Intended use" ?
I mean, I'm sure most of us aren't using Windows as it's "Intended" use, especially when it comes to disabling telemetry, and services, and using software not deemed "legal" by those who like to shout the most. I don't use the internet as it's "Intended" use, I often visit rom sites looking for roms for my Mister. I don't use my car as it's intended use, I have mine modified, tuned, and run a custom ECU map.

Hackshed_Carl wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:05 am Regarding the conversation about abusing the educational pricing, are we not all guilty of that?
We've all bought a DE-10 board at a discounted price and have used it for MiSTer and not its intended use.
Seems hypocritical to me
---EOF---

Just a minor point, but the educational pricing is different from the retail pricing. Most of us, probably including you, bought it for the full retail price and not the -$30 discount for education uses. I get what you are saying though, that the retail pricing is also a loss-leader pricing. Which is true.

Indeed I know next to nothing about the market for FPGA boards but some prices I did see are pretty much prohibitive to a project like MiSTer. Sure some would still buy in at 10x the current price point but not many. Here's to hoping that a similarly priced successor platform will be available at the inevitable point in time when the DE10 Nano ceases to be viable.

MiSTer_Kirk wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:32 pm

Regarding the conversation about abusing the educational pricing, are we not all guilty of that?

No. - Yes. We don't see the discounted price because it's heavily subsidized before it goes on sale

We've all bought a DE-10 board at a discounted price

Nope. Paid a premium on ebay to have it all built for me, I only had to setup the sdcard. - Again, see the note above about the price being subsidized

and have used it for MiSTer and not its intended use.

What is, "Intended use" ?
I mean, I'm sure most of us aren't using Windows as it's "Intended" use, especially when it comes to disabling telemetry, and services, and using software not deemed "legal" by those who like to shout the most. I don't use the internet as it's "Intended" use, I often visit rom sites looking for roms for my Mister. I don't use my car as it's intended use, I have mine modified, tuned, and run a custom ECU map.

Intended use is as a development platform for EE students

Intended use is as a development platform for EE students

Oh dear. Best report all of us to the DE-10 Morality Police, then.